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scruffy1

how crap is this government ?

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49 minutes ago, scruffy1 said:

per your protocol, the answer is fiscal, and the success is if you are leo, or something like leo, or those people that leo aspires to emulate

 

I'm not special. I expect that everyone can be not special, like me.

 

50 minutes ago, scruffy1 said:

your expectations disregard other people's motivations, unless they accord with yours precisely - it's the major problem of the capitalist paradigm to measure monetary gain as the most important parameter, and absolutely refuse to hear that isn't a universal appraisal

 

Your attempt to pretend that taking away sit down money to force people to become capitalist fat cats is my concern is monotonously flawed.

 

51 minutes ago, scruffy1 said:

as for expecting to culturally assimilate indigenous people because they have no choice - it's that very lack of choice that destroys motivation

 

Works for every other assimilated people.

 

52 minutes ago, scruffy1 said:

i don't think a sob story makes anyone inferior, but i do understand it illustrates their personal view point - the one you can't seem to visualise as you don't "see" how that could possibly be

 

 

No. I don't. Neither can anyone sane.

 

53 minutes ago, scruffy1 said:

i was educated in psychology and  psychiatry as part of training

 

Then this will ring true.

 

Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT)
CBT is an excellent treatment for depression, alone or in conjunction with medication. CBT involves learning:
^ to control the negative thoughts that lead to loss of interest and feelings of worthlessness;
^ to combat the emotions of sadness and hopelessness, and;
^ Loss of energy, even when not physically active.
^ to counteract the behaviours related to poor concentration and thoughts of death
Techniques for problem solving are also taught whether the problem is a consequence or cause of the depression. CBT is very effective and 80% of people with mild, moderate or severe depression improve.

 

Like, I don't know about your training, but to me that reads like "work hard to overcome your issues".

 

57 minutes ago, scruffy1 said:

your impressive presumption of knowledge merely reveals that you lack the finesse to appreciate that no-one actually knows much, and i'm quite happy to say i know plenty, but it isn't a lot, and i disagree with your prismatic aberration of society

 

Society seems to disagree with your myopic interpretation of disadvantage.

7 minutes ago, fliptopia said:

Your prescription of just working through it reminds me of the brand of Christian who tells you that you don't believe in their god because you haven't prayed enough or read the bible correctly or just gone to church enough or in the right way. They can't accept that you might have just looked at the same stuff and heard the same things and come to a different conclusion because to them it's so damn obvious that if you saw what they saw you would believe what they do. 

 

Except here's a fun fact:

1. If you rise above your circumstances, you can get somewhere, to other circumstances.

2. If you slam your head on the floor or slap yourself with a leather belt while asking god for help, you won't get somewhere.

 

Work, works.

Prayer doesn't.

 

Generational disadvantages are merely accidents of birth. They can define the individual by they don't have to.

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An article extract for you:

 

Aboriginal communities survived for thousands of years with clear social structures, in which people worked and learned and took care of themselves, their families and communities. We survived two centuries of dispossession and colonisation and segregation, our social structures and families under constant attack; but still we worked, learned and took care of our families and communities as best we could. Most of us still do.

 

The problems in this video aren’t the product of dispossession, colonisation, segregation, the stolen generation or even intergenerational trauma from those past injustices. The problems have arisen since the 1970s when Aboriginal people, particularly those in remote and regional Australia, moved en masse on to what our elders called “sit-down money”. That one change caused complete social and family breakdown and dysfunction in Aboriginal communities across remote and regional Australia.

 

Today we talk about moving Aboriginal people from welfare to work. But we forget that 50-odd years ago, socially progressive governments (both Labor and Liberal) transitioned Aboriginal people from work to welfare.

 

This video shows the appalling results. Over generations, people in those communities lost all sense of self-sufficiency and personal responsibility. They no longer learn it from their parents and elders or see it demonstrated around them. Instead they grow up in a world where people don’t work or take care of themselves or their children, where drug, alcohol and gambling abuse are all around them, and sexual atrocities have become the norm in some families and are repeated with each generation.

 

It’s not only Aboriginal people who are suffering this cancer. There are non-Aboriginal families and communities with the same problems. 

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6 minutes ago, Leonid said:

That one change caused complete social and family breakdown and dysfunction in Aboriginal communities across remote and regional Australia.

 

The same thing is happening in the United States and in Canada.

 

Sit-down money is the worst thing we ever came up with. Dignity, real dignity - can be found in honest work that removes you from your circumstances.

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4 minutes ago, Leonid said:

 

The same thing is happening in the United States and in Canada.

 

Sit-down money is the worst thing we ever came up with. Dignity, real dignity - can be found in honest work that removes you from your circumstances.

 

I completely agree that honest work gives some dignity and self worth BTW. Just to be clear I'm not disagreeing with everything you're saying. Just speaking to what is coming across as a filtered view. I understand it may be more nuanced in practice than what you put in a post here though. 

29 minutes ago, Leonid said:

 

Except here's a fun fact:

1. If you rise above your circumstances, you can get somewhere, to other circumstances.

2. If you slam your head on the floor or slap yourself with a leather belt while asking god for help, you won't get somewhere.

 

Work, works.

Prayer doesn't.

 

Generational disadvantages are merely accidents of birth. They can define the individual by they don't have to.

 

No they don't have to. Im talking not about whether working works but how you get someone to believe that working will work for them or that they can even start working if they do see it would be good for them. 

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9 minutes ago, Leonid said:

Dignity, real dignity - can be found in honest work that removes you from your circumstances.

Only if your minimum wage packet enables you to live with the current cost of living ...

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4 minutes ago, fliptopia said:

Im talking not about whether working works but how you get someone to believe that working will work for them or that they can even start working if they do see it would be good for them. 

 

You don't. You just remove every barrier you can and hope that the exceptional drag the mediocre with them.

4 minutes ago, eveln said:

Only if your minimum wage packet enables you to live with the current cost of living ...

 

... which is where we circle back to the fact that the highest minimum wage in the world, high taxes, high immigration, low infrastructure spending and sparse population... is not conducive to lower costs of living.

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repetition of dissent can't influence an inflexible view, so i'll agree to disagree

 

not because you are wrong, but because you refuse to understand there is no such thing as a universal "right"

 

 

as an aside, if cbt worked for everyone, there wouldn't need to be alternative options

 

your enthusiasm for a singular solution again demonstrates your incapacity to accept the non-homogeneity of humans

 

 

your concept of what is success and how it is achieved is valid for your experience... it doesn't apply to what isn't your experience, and you can't force it to do so

 

being told how it worked for you only tells me it worked for you, and congratulations for your achievement

 

 

 

we fundamentally agree that being oppressed is not a good thing,, but expecting others to see your solution as their salvation is promoting a quasi-religious enlightenment, and not everyone surrenders to the lord either, much to many religions' dissatisfaction, given they all promote their own truth

 

which is obviously the truth to them, as i can observe, without sharing their opinion

 

edit :  just read this a moment ago and thought it was relevant to my position

 

https://www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l6053

 

for the click shy :  " How do you solve a complex problem such as poverty? You might begin by saying, “I don’t know.” It’s hard to admit where your knowledge ends and your ignorance begins ..."

Edited by scruffy1
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On 10/19/2019 at 12:13 AM, scruffy1 said:

not because you are wrong, but because you refuse to understand there is no such thing as a universal "right"

 

There is such a thing as universal right. Or at least as close to right as possible.

 

Lets play “what if”?

 

What if your job sucks? Get another job.

What if your job doesn’t pay enough money? Get a better job.

What if there is no better job? Evaluate whether you want more money and shift industries/professions.

What if my circumstances suck? Change your circumstances.

What if I can’t afford to change my circumstances? Realise you’re in Australia and that literally no-one can not afford a bus ticket and a phone call. Or ask a friend.

 

Sure, there are probably exceptions to those rules. But you know... it’s like a man with two X chromosomes - it’s not really real and if it is it’s in such vanishing quantities that you may as well treat it as the outlier’s outlier.

 

Fundamentally: anyone in this country can change their circumstances. Every single person.

 

The statement that “Leo built a business and works his ass off, but not everyone else can” is a great excuse to do fucken nothing and sit on your brain like Kimmo, weeping at the unfairness of it all and haranguing for the revolution that is sure to mass murder unproductive people first.

 

The fundamental point is that you don’t have to be like Leo. You can be “better” than Leo and go from a university student to as rich as Larry Page and Sergei Brin. Or you can be “worse” than Leo and simply get a decent job that gives you something dignifying to do for 8-12h a day that prevents you sitting around a camp fire in some nowhere shithole sticking syringes in your arm and slamming down VBs, out of sheer boredom and despondency because whitey says you’re worthless on account of your skin colour and pays you sit down money to stay outta whitey’s way in Bumfuck, Nowhere, Western Australia.

 

You get me? 

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That really is a very narrow view Leo - it speaks to your circumstance not necessarily to others.

 

(BTW, Kimmo apparently works for Pirtek, that can be very hard yakka.)

 

My current circumstance is perhaps illustrative.

 

I'm 67, a lot of opportunities begin to close in on you post 60.

 

I had pneumonia last year, what my doc rather tellingly terms a "lung attack."  It has presently left me breathless and whilst I am not sure if it is directly related with significant lower back-pain. That excludes me from the more physical jobs that I would normally fall back on whilst changing direction.

 

Personal obligations made me move States at the end of last year. That has left me isolated from a quarter of a century of business relationships in W.A. and striving to pick up ancient ones here in S.A.

 

At the moment I am living on my pension whilst I look for new options but they are not exactly knocking hard.

 

Age and health are decidedly against me, so is location-as much as I like SA and proximity to family it is not exactly a hotbed of activity, but neither is WA at the moment.

 

It could sound like I'm giving up, nothing could be further from the truth but realistically my options are constrained by circumstance. I will most likely need to focus on work-from-home possibilities and they are rarer than one might think.

 

Now, something will turn up, it always does, but I'd be in a significantly worse situation if I were aboriginal - hard fact, but true.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by chrisg
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32 minutes ago, Leonid said:

 

Fundamentally: anyone in this country can change their circumstances. Every single person.

 

 

Of course, you're spot on.

 

But at the risk of sounding like I'm "making excuses", there is such a thing as the poverty cycle, and the psychological barriers are significant.

 

It's almost like a cult, some people will wake up one day and realise it's all bullshit, some will be trapped for life because their cognitive biases are too strong.

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57 minutes ago, Leonid said:

 

You get me? 

 

 

i hear what you say every time

 

the problem here isn't my understanding of what you think - it's your dogmatic repetition that if it works for you, everyone should agree

 

 

"There is such a thing as universal right. Or at least as close to right as possible."

 

the link i posted is red rag to your bull; here it is again for your edification https://www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l6053

 

 

the point here is that i accept i don't have all the answers, or even one

 

your problem is that you singularly believe you are the answer

 

the incapacity to not see your "success" as a success for you (but not everyone) is the problem - i agree to disagree with your monomania, so please don't tell me the same things again - i understand what you believe, but it's not a universally held view and i predict won't attain that status ever

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On 10/17/2019 at 7:59 PM, Leonid said:

I’m not a super-capitalist or anything like that. I’m just anti-left wing economics for the same reason I’m anti natural medicine. Because there’s no positive result from left-wing economics or from natural medicine, no matter how good they sound and no matter how convincing the charlatans peddling them are.

 

Piketty is the first prominent economist in decades who isn't a charlatan, you raving fuckwit. R>G, and that's a fact you can take to the bank, like the parasitic scum of society do. 

 

Allow the most powerful in society to continue consolidating their power, and surprise - trillions gather in the Cayman Islands and so on, while economies are bled dry. 

 

We've been here before, more than once. And you know what fixed it? Fucking left wing economics, retard. I'd tell you to take a look at the historical facts, but I'm talking to the sort of insane dipshit who thinks there's anything good to say about Trump, so what's the fucking point. 

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On 10/18/2019 at 9:56 PM, fliptopia said:

I completely agree that honest work gives some dignity and self worth BTW.

 

Just wondering, how much of the 'honest work' available doesn't involve being part of a system hell-bent on ignoring 'externalities' like poisoning the biosphere, you reckon?

 

And does 'honest work' include those sectors of the economy which don't actually generate any value but make off with the lion's share? 

 

Is it honest work at a billionaire's media company making propaganda to convince folks to put up with business as usual for another generation? 

 

Who are the honest workers? I'd like to know. 

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3 hours ago, chrisg said:

(BTW, Kimmo apparently works for Pirtek, that can be very hard yakka.)

 

Wait, hang on, facts are irrelevant. I'm a worthless layabout because I'm not into walking around with a half-dozen billionaire's cocks up me. 

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🙂

 

We could start with there is something demonstrably wrong with economies that produce so many billionaires.

 

Primarily I'd contend that it is a combination of the digitisation of the economy and a stock market that has lost touch entirely.

 

Cheers

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3 hours ago, Kimmo said:

 

Wait, hang on, facts are irrelevant. I'm a worthless layabout because I'm not into walking around with a half-dozen billionaire's cocks up me. 

Lordy sakes !! ... nup I' m gonna stifle the urge :)... Fuckit, it means logging out 

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7 hours ago, Kimmo said:

 

Piketty is the first prominent economist in decades who isn't a charlatan, you raving fuckwit. R>G, and that's a fact you can take to the bank, like the parasitic scum of society do. 

 

Allow the most powerful in society to continue consolidating their power, and surprise - trillions gather in the Cayman Islands and so on, while economies are bled dry. 

 

We've been here before, more than once. And you know what fixed it? Fucking left wing economics, retard. I'd tell you to take a look at the historical facts, but I'm talking to the sort of insane dipshit who thinks there's anything good to say about Trump, so what's the fucking point. 


^ once again proving you’re zombie proof because there’s literally dust between your ears.

 

Listen up, because this shit is going to amaze you: nothing produces billionaires that are unaccountable like left wing politics with left wing economics.

 

Right wing economics and right wing politics also produces billionaires but I guarantee you a shitload more have been prosecuted for actual misdeeds than the current billionaires of Venezuela, Cuba, Vietnam, China or DPRK.

 

Your problem is tax avoidance? 
 

Let’s talk about that: when was the last time you didn’t use all available legal and affordable remedies to minimise your tax? It’s basically why tax accountants exist - to minimise tax.

 

So instead of blaming billionaires for wanting to keep their money out of the hands of people like you who sit on their brains all day when not fucked up by copious quantities of drugs - why don’t you actually try to focus on the problem: the tax haven status and laws of the Cayman Islands. Here you have a state literally undermining the entire legal order to provide safe haven for scum.

 

They Caymans are just incidental for the rich. The real benefit is how they shield the very same criminal enterprises that consume all your money (drugs are expensive).

 

Instead of focusing on the rich for doing what you do (using every available means to reduce their tax), why not try focusing on what helps them do it? Do you know why so few were prosecuted after the Panama Papers leak? Because so few broke any laws!

 

So please do us all a huge solid, take that cock ring off your neck to restore airflow, stop sitting on your brains and use your rectum for what’s currently coming out of your mouth.
 

Left wing economics is known world-wide for always making a bad situation worse.

Edited by Leonid

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The fundamental Fact is that we do know what people need.

 

Your argument seems to alternate between the “no we don’t” lie and the “not everyone can be like Leo” false premise.

 

Everyone - literally everyone is capable of the second tier. If you can’t get to that you’re either taking sit down money from racist lefties who think you’re worthless cause your grandparents were fucked over. Or you’re medically incapable.

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54 minutes ago, Leonid said:


The fundamental Fact is that we do know what people need.

 

Your argument seems to alternate between the “no we don’t” lie and the “not everyone can be like Leo” false premise.

 

Everyone - literally everyone is capable of the second tier. If you can’t get to that you’re either taking sit down money from racist lefties who think you’re worthless cause your grandparents were fucked over. Or you’re medically incapable.

 

sigh !

 

some people are all transmit and no reception

 

 

my argument remains a consistent "the answer isn't a single response" and even more consistent "not everyone wants to be like leo"

 

 

your self obsession is a tiresome adolescent trait

 

it's NOT all about you, or how you think it is

 

 

 

Edited by scruffy1
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5 minutes ago, scruffy1 said:

 

sigh !

 

some people are all transmit and no reception

 

 

my argument remains a consistent "the answer isn't a single response" and even more consistent "not everyone wants to be like leo"

 

 

your self obsession is a tiresome adolescent trait

 

it's NOT all about you, or how you think ot is


*sigh* back at you.

 

You can take any road you want but all roads lead to Rome.

 

Employment, dignity, self-worth are universal. They’re needs. Everyone has them.

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Just now, Leonid said:

my argument remains a consistent "the answer isn't a single response" and even more consistent "not everyone wants to be like leo"


And that’s where your dogged myopia is beating you over the head.

 

You don’t have to want to be like Leo to need to be employed and want to be better than a drunken sloth paid to disappear from society.

 

You’ve fixated on me like I’m your fucken target of achievement. Achievement can mean shovelling shit for minimum wage in Alice Springs. It’s a job - it gives you purpose. It gives you dignity.

 

More importantly it gives you a springboard into tier 3 - Love and Belonging.

 

The sit down money we pay, makes sure people lefties consider undesirable never get to tier 2 by throwing every conceivable obstacle in their way.

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your fixed ideation that people will strive to better themselves for money is not a truth for all

 

if you want to quote maslow, then explain how dispossessed indigenous people aspire to follow the hierarchy espoused by a the son of russian jewish immirants in brooklyn ?

 

like the stages of grief, they overlap, and expecting people to "step up" is intrinsically far too simplistic

 

ffs, you are prescribing a russian jewish construct to a primitive culture that has had "safety" denied to them since the arrival of white people who they have every right to despise for numerous reasons, and they should find a path to righteous self-actualisation by assimilating ?

i am hardly surprised you identify with that paradigm; i am hardly surprised they don't see it at all
 

 

 

if you stopped being so outraged at having to sponsor them "sit down money", you might realise they aren't being paid to sit down, they simply for the most part have no interest in standing up as white people

 

if you culturally belong to the land, your idea of "belonging" to a work force is stupid

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11 hours ago, scruffy1 said:

want to quote maslow, then explain how dispossessed indigenous people aspire to follow the hierarchy espoused by a the son of russian jewish immirants in brooklyn ?


There’s that strawman again.

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