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scruffy1

how crap is this government ?

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I agree with you. 'This party did this' should never be used an excuse for the incumbent's bad behaviour.

Riiiight because when a new government comes into power everything gets reset and previous actions have no effect....

 

Riiiiiight, because I said this applied to previous circumstances and not retarded policies instated well after the election...

 

LOL, you said "I love how when confronted with how terrible this government has been for all involved the best the apologists can come up with is 'but but but Labor did this!'", When one of the arguments put forward by Rybags was that the current policy decisions where based on taking corrective action (real or imagined is irrelevant) for policies of the previous government, but hey you got in some man-childish name calling so no need to actual think now right?

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I agree with you. 'This party did this' should never be used an excuse for the incumbent's bad behaviour.

Riiiight because when a new government comes into power everything gets reset and previous actions have no effect....

 

Riiiiiight, because I said this applied to previous circumstances and not retarded policies instated well after the election...

 

LOL, you said "I love how when confronted with how terrible this government has been for all involved the best the apologists can come up with is 'but but but Labor did this!'", When one of the arguments put forward by Rybags was that the current policy decisions where based on taking corrective action (real or imagined is irrelevant) for policies of the previous government, but hey you got in some man-childish name calling so no need to actual think now right?

 

You're jumping to an awful lot of conclusions there, champ.

 

Please provide:

*instances where I called *anyone* any names in this thread (you can't, cause I didn't)

*instances where I made any kind of claim previous circumstances were what I was having a go about.

 

Speculative extrapolation doesn't count as an instance.

Edited by aquilus

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You're jumping to an awful lot of conclusions there, champ.

No I'm not, all you've done so far is post some childish name calling of a minister and then some jerky comment about how bad the 'other' team team is.

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You're jumping to an awful lot of conclusions there, champ.

No I'm not, all you've done so far is post some childish name calling of a minister and then some jerky comment about how bad the 'other' team team is.

 

Oh. That comment about Scott Morrison being a cunt has you butthurt?

 

I'm sorry Scott Morrison is a cunt.

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You're jumping to an awful lot of conclusions there, champ.

No I'm not, all you've done so far is post some childish name calling of a minister and then some jerky comment about how bad the 'other' team team is.

 

Oh. That comment about Scott Morrison being a cunt has you butthurt?

 

I'm sorry Scott Morrison is a cunt.

 

Damn. That like button getting a pounding.

 

He is also a criminal.

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I'm not even gonna address how laughable the 'other team' comment is. I hate Labor almost as much. But I suppose if you're a partisan you can't tell the difference...

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You're jumping to an awful lot of conclusions there, champ.

No I'm not, all you've done so far is post some childish name calling of a minister and then some jerky comment about how bad the 'other' team team is.

 

Oh. That comment about Scott Morrison being a cunt has you butthurt?

 

I'm sorry Scott Morrison is a cunt.

 

Still the some old man-child aren't you The Manta.

Edited by GoFaster

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You're jumping to an awful lot of conclusions there, champ.

No I'm not, all you've done so far is post some childish name calling of a minister and then some jerky comment about how bad the 'other' team team is.

 

Oh. That comment about Scott Morrison being a cunt has you butthurt?

 

I'm sorry Scott Morrison is a cunt.

 

Still the some old man-child aren't you The Manta.

 

You know it.

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Scott is a cunt, we should go back to the last policy where we incarcerate everyone for years and watch em drown in their shit boats trying to get here.

 

Whats the difference in the death tally between Gaza and the drowning boat people?

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I thought we still were incarcerating everyone for years. Wasn't the whole point to create a hell on earth that sucked so much that the darkies wouldn't dare bother trying to invade our shores?

 

There, that's something I can rip into both Labor *and* Liberal about - the damned concentration camps.

 

also pfft, as if the people in favour of Operation Douchelord even gave a shit about brown people drowning at sea outside of the outside chance they might make it to Our Land .

 

There are certain incontrovertible facts: the sky is blue. The earth revolves around the sun. We're all gonna die one day. Scott Morrison is a cunt.

Edited by aquilus

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Scott is a cunt, we should go back to the last policy where we incarcerate everyone for years and watch em drown in their shit boats trying to get here.

 

Whats the difference in the death tally between Gaza and the drowning boat people?

 

On the off chance your serious the amount of drowned 'boat people' is around the 1300 figure (2000 - 2014) from Monash Uni, the database includes all deaths associated with immigration in some way, e.g. a Scotsman that died in England after being deported.

Edited by GoFaster

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Scott is a cunt, we should go back to the last policy where we incarcerate everyone for years and watch em drown in their shit boats trying to get here.

 

Whats the difference in the death tally between Gaza and the drowning boat people?

Tally of innocents?

 

Rudderless Kev and Julia the Assassin definitely have Israel beat.

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Scott is a cunt, we should go back to the last policy where we incarcerate everyone for years and watch em drown in their shit boats trying to get here.

Ugh... my least favourite argument that the retched cunt of a government has managed to promote.

 

Firstly, everyone with even cursory access to the facts can agree both major parties have outrageously shit policy when it comes to dealing with maritime asylum seekers. Why? I posit it's because they're a convenient political football that effectively scores points with xenophobic voters who don't know any better. It's costing us a shitload of money, arguably has little effect on national security, and certainly makes us all look like cunts in the eyes of the international community.

 

Let's take a step back for the moment, look at the bigger picture, and determine if your ignorance is transitory, wilful, or you whether it's actually the result irreparably defective inductive reasoning skills. Using GoFaster's source, let's say 1300 people have drowned while attempting to seek asylum. Why are they seeking asylum? In the case of the latest group, because there's been a fucking civil war in their home country, and they were on the losing side. This is a common pattern. War, a lag of 6 months-2 years, and then boat arrivals in Australian waters.

 

Crudely assuming for the sake of the argument that number of drowned is evenly distributed by origin country, about 78 of the deaths can be attributable to Tamil Sri Lankan's (Source). This follows the actual data fairly closely (Source)

 

Now, how many did this civil war kill? About 33,000 between 2006-2009 (Source). How do the figures relate? It means about 0.2% of casualties we're aware of were as a result of people fleeing to Australia by boat. What's the crude practical implication of this figure? It's probably about as dangerous for them to stay at home than it is for them to attempt to come to Australia by boat. What facts do we have to back this up? Over 90% of them are determined to be genuine refugees (Source). Not economic refugees, not queue jumpers, genuine fucking refugees based on the UN definition.

 

You could argue Sri Lanka, and in particular the LTTE, brought this on themselves through civil war. How about where most of the arrivals are coming from, Afghanistan? The number of those poor bastards coming to Australia only rose after we helped the Americans bomb the shit out of them. So not only have we contributed to making them flee their homeland, we now waste tax payers money to lock them up. Pretty fucking heartless of us, isn't it?

 

Now, since you've probably written me off as a bleeding heart liberal, I thought I'd demonstrate why I think our politicians are about as useful as discarded yoghurt containers, and what the alternatives are.

 

Option 1 - Honest cunts

We signed the UN refugee convention, which the government now does everything in it's power to find loop holes in. The reason we waste millions via offshore processing is to deny the asylum seekers a right to an appeal, through legal loop holes regarding 'Australian soil'. Why don't we stop all this bullshit, and just reneg on our commitment to the UNHCR? That way, we have legal grounds for turning away the boats, we don't have to waste money on shitty lawyers and bureaucrats to find ways around, or sponsoring corrupt governments to set up pseudo-prisons. We'll cop a bit of international flak no doubt, but at least the xenophobes will be happy, right?

 

Option 2 - Listen to the experts

The asylum seeker issue has been analysed pragmatically by people who know their shit multiple times. The result is almost always a variation on the same theme: Fuck off the horrific bills associated with Christmas Island (due mainly to it's remoteness), shut down Nauru and stop sponsoring dodgy private security companies or the current PNG government, expand mainland processing facilities, and focus on processing the claims as efficiently as possible. This may mean that we fly less refugees over from Africa if we don't increase our quota, but arguably, our responsibilities should prioritise the local region to maximise efficiency, and also because we're partly responsible due to our bombing the shit out of these countries with America. Manage the security risk with existing defence force and government assets, and by choosing remote locations for the processing.

 

Option 3 - Compassionate extension of option 2

Onshore processing by fucking off Christmas Island and Nauru, but allow families with children to be cared for by the Churches (Source) or other community management programs. Allow those waiting for their applications to be process to contribute to the Australian economy by working, with somewhat strict security protocols to manage community risk.

 

There's obviously more too it then what I've spelled out here, but I'm no expert, and I think it's the experts who should be calling the shots. Minor problem pretty much solved, the media and the public could then focus on more important issues, like sorting out the pathetic shit-fight we currently call Australian politics.

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solid gold

Mate, I tip my hat. You made that point far more eloquently than most ever could, I tend to dissolve into incoherent rage after the third sentence.

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yes, let's do our best to disenfranchise refugees

 

after all, look at what those bloody vietnamese escapees did after we joined the losing side in their civil war...

 

oh wait, they integrated and now their first generation offspring are sponging off our economy by being specialist doctors and shit like that

 

and all those other bloody refo groups that i keep seeing doing such terrorist activities as driving taxis while gaining qualifications in their "spare" time, or forcing me to encounter such oppressive experiences as eating ban mai, or tagines

 

i have little sympathy for muslim extremists, but in truth they are as offensive as devout catholics (looking at you, george pell) in terms of potential damage to the populace

 

bona fide refugees are legal in spite of government rhetoric and labelling; the wheels won't fall off our little piece of alleged civilisation if we actually undertake our obligations under the agreements we have with the united nations

 

the labor party, and in particular kevin rudd, are guilty of avoiding that responsibility, but as scott morrison in currently the criminal in charge of de facto genocide by neglect, he should man the fuck up and read the rules to which our nation is party, and honour them, or shut the fuck up about who is illegal

 

cunt is too good a word; the only similarity is that his hairstyle looks like he has had a cranial brasilian

 

he is the retard clone of philip ruddock, who should die of shame for wearing an amnesty international badge while serving as minister "for" immigration under the howard regime - bad enough that he was disowned by his more liberal daughter during that regime

 

i'll piss on the attorney general some time later, once i've had dinner, and after it has digested, lest i vomit

Edited by scruffy1
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Discarded yoghurt containers ? Really ?! And previously you were doing so well with the mighty " cunt " :P

 

Nice one tastywheat. I don't think any Aussie gov. has the balls to go with the first option ... also think of all the people

who'd lose their job if the gov. did do it ;)

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Worst non-sequitur ever.

 

Are you really trying to push the logic tastywheat that because 90% of Lankans are granted refugee status, that we need to accept border breaches?

 

I'm going to state this as simple as possible using small words.

 

By turning back boats we're doing refugees a favour. Not the ones we turn back. The ones who have been waiting in UNHCR camps for years because they didn't have the money to sit around and wait for a smuggler to pick them up.

 

We take 13k refugees a year.let's take ones who don't breach our borders while paying international people smugglers. In case you weren't aware there's a UN convention against aiding those too.

 

Furthermore let's not forget that resettlement is not part of the convention. Most countries have signed the convention. The resettlement programming is a different, much more exclusive club.

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Oh good, Leonid has chimed in with his usual hypocritical patronising drivel, that is not only wrong, it demonstrates disturbing quantities of cognitive dissonance and wilful ignorance!

 

I'm going to state this as simply as possible, using small words.

 

Can you direct me to an Australian or UN law that says it's against the law to enter the country without a visa for the purpose of seeking asylum?

 

No?

 

Right. Fuck off with your crocodile tears and faulty logic then.

 

Asylum seekers do not break any Australian laws simply by arriving on boats or without authorisation. Australian and international law make these allowances because it is not always safe or practicable for asylum seekers to obtain travel documents or travel through authorised channels. Refugees are, by definition, persons fleeing persecution and in most cases are being persecuted by their own government. It is often too dangerous for refugees to apply for a passport or exit visa or approach an Australian Embassy for a visa, as such actions could put their lives, and the lives of their families, at risk. Refugees may also be forced to flee with little notice due to rapidly deteriorating situations and do not have time to apply for travel documents or arrange travel through authorised channels. Permitting asylum seekers to entry a country without travel documents is similar to allowing ambulance drivers to exceed the speed limit in an emergency – the action would be ordinarily be considered illegal, but the circumstances warrant an exception.

 

From http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Par...s#_Toc348096466

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By turning back boats we're doing refugees a favour. Not the ones we turn back. The ones who have been waiting in UNHCR camps for years because they didn't have the money to sit around and wait for a smuggler to pick them up.

Oh please, you care about as much about the legitimate refugees as the ones that drown. Useful tools to grandstand on, and jack-shit else.

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By turning back boats we're doing refugees a favour. Not the ones we turn back. The ones who have been waiting in UNHCR camps for years because they didn't have the money to sit around and wait for a smuggler to pick them up.

Oh please, you care about as much about the legitimate refugees as the ones that drown. Useful tools to grandstand on, and jack-shit else.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

 

Rob.

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I'm a immigrant, I'm glad Australia allows immigrants to enter, I also glad Australia chooses to help refugees, many of those guys can really do with a helping hand.

 

What I don't get is why people complain about quality of living enviroments, I've not been to where these guys are staying but I have my own story. When I was a full time student and part time worker in the UK I paid to stay in a tiny room, which was freezing during the winter and the cupboard was falling apart. I shared a bathroom, toilet and kitchen with many other people from different parts of the world. The place was mouldly, there was paint peeling off the walls, filthy carpets worn away, mice running about and there was 3 pubs on my street that would have drunks waking me up. I don't regret living there, I didn't complain and I didn't get help from anyone. I voluntarily paid to live in those crappy conditions but I had a plan, to study and work to move up and out. I imagine prison was more comfortable in the UK than it was in my place, so I can't feel bad for people when they complain about their housing conditions.

Edited by fabman_uk

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I'm a legal immigrant, I'm glad Australia allows immigrants to enter, I also glad Australia chooses to help refugees, many of those guys can really do with a helping hand.

 

What I don't get is why people complain about quality of living enviroments, I've not been to where these guys are staying but I have my own story. When I was a full time student and part time worker in the UK I paid to stay in a tiny room, which was freezing during the winter and the cupboard was falling apart. I shared a bathroom, toilet and kitchen with many other people from different parts of the world. The place was mouldly, there was paint peeling off the walls, filthy carpets worn away, mice running about and there was 3 pubs on my street that would have drunks waking me up. I don't regret living there, I didn't complain and I didn't get help from anyone. I voluntarily paid to live in those crappy conditions but I had a plan, to study and work to move up and out. I imagine prison was more comfortable in the UK than it was in my place, so I can't feel bad for people when they complain about their housing conditions.

Some of the reports coming out of those places are more than just living in an uncomfortable place. If these reports are true (and the evidence is mounting up more and more to suggest that it is), then you're looking at things like refugees getting restricted access to water and food (apparently in the summer they had something like one to two cups a day), beatings, assaults (some claim sexual-based), restricted access to sanitary products for women, segregation from families, verbal abuse and threats. This is coming from people who apparently used to work there.

 

There've been a fair few leaked tweets/FB posts from the trained apes that used to guard such places that basically laugh and mock refugees who self-harm, and the fact that Morrison's so hush-hush about the whole scenario does not do anybody any favours, especially with Reza Barati's murder being swept under the rug. I honestly believe something horrible is going on there and history is going to judge us horrifically for it. It's probably why I come across so white-hot mad about the subject, I am horrified that people think it's OK to do such things.

Edited by aquilus

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I'm a legal immigrant, I'm glad Australia allows immigrants to enter, I also glad Australia chooses to help refugees, many of those guys can really do with a helping hand.

 

What I don't get is why people complain about quality of living enviroments, I've not been to where these guys are staying but I have my own story. When I was a full time student and part time worker in the UK I paid to stay in a tiny room, which was freezing during the winter and the cupboard was falling apart. I shared a bathroom, toilet and kitchen with many other people from different parts of the world. The place was mouldly, there was paint peeling off the walls, filthy carpets worn away, mice running about and there was 3 pubs on my street that would have drunks waking me up. I don't regret living there, I didn't complain and I didn't get help from anyone. I voluntarily paid to live in those crappy conditions but I had a plan, to study and work to move up and out. I imagine prison was more comfortable in the UK than it was in my place, so I can't feel bad for people when they complain about their housing conditions.

Some of the reports coming out of those places are more than just living in an uncomfortable place. If these reports are true (and the evidence is mounting up more and more to suggest that it is), then you're looking at things like refugees getting restricted access to water and food (apparently in the summer they had something like one to two cups a day), beatings, assaults (some claim sexual-based), restricted access to sanitary products for women, segregation from families, verbal abuse and threats. This is coming from people who apparently used to work there.

 

There've been a fair few leaked tweets/FB posts from the trained apes that used to guard such places that basically laugh and mock refugees who self-harm, and the fact that Morrison's so hush-hush about the whole scenario does not do anybody any favours, especially with Reza Barati's murder being swept under the rug. I honestly believe something horrible is going on there and history is going to judge us horrifically for it. It's probably why I come across so white-hot mad about the subject, I am horrified that people think it's OK to do such things.

 

I don't get mad or upset by it, if what the reports are saying are true, it is disgusting.

 

However I see the world as having over 7 billion people, if terrible conditions are happening close to me or are happing in a different continent I don't feel more or less angry about either of them. Right now and at every moment someone is being raped or murdered, in great numbers in Syria, but we as a human race do very little to stop it. Despite your passion, and I do believe you care, we all do very little to help those people. So many people don't even know their neighbours names here or in the UK, let alone are willing to help them when they need it.

 

This is not an insult to you, but what do you directly do to help these people aquilus? I imagine not much, you probably expect the government that is in charge of the country you live in to take responsibility for those people in dire needs, but you, me and everyone could do something to help these people. We chose not to. We chose to talk about it, or complain or even ignore it. If we do nothing, we are the problem, I acknowledge I am part of the problem with neither pride or shame.

 

I don't think if I spent my whole life trying I would make an effect on this global problem. I'd love someone to inspire me, to speak to my heart, no one has. I see name calling on both sides, plenty of finger pointing, but very little genuine action.

 

How can you get mad, it is futile.

Edited by fabman_uk

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