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NZT48

All abortion is murder and should be treated under law the same as any other murder.

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Just now, i_am_banned2 said:

All parents should kill their children at the earliest opportunity. This would spare them the suffering of this sinful, mortal world and fast-track them into Eternal Paradise. Such murders are readily forgiven under the stated rules of the Holy Bible, thereby allowing these parents to join their now-grateful children in the Heavenly Garden of Our Lord. Though they may have to wait a little while - perhaps the Church could organise some sort of regular murder ceremony to get things moving faster. Yahweh himself set the example for all to follow (with Jesus).

If your parents haven't murdered you yet, then perhaps they don't love you enough?

No more children means no more pool fencing.

I'm down with this.

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56 minutes ago, SquallStrife said:

No more children means no more pool fencing.

I'm down with this.

 

Haha, they should have incorporated that concept into Children of Men.

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5 hours ago, NZT48 said:

By that logic ...

 

Now you want to be logical . Really ?

It's really not using logic to tell people who've been messed with one way or another since they their selves left their mummies womb, to not kill unwanted foetus. I mean what is it they learn from the moment they can feel and then understand what it is they feel ?

One of the first things they learn, is that bigger people like to cut them in their very most sensitive of places, and it really hurt them, physically and mentally.

Tell me, what makes you think that ever stopping the right of a legal hygienically done abortion is going to cure mankind of his instinctive desire to hurt those less capable than him/her ?

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5 hours ago, NZT48 said:

Killing innocent babies is depriving them of their ability to have that choice. That is what I meant to convey.

If it makes a difference then replace "okay" with "good". It is not good for Trump and Putin to use their free will to start thermonuclear world war, is it?

Don't confuse free will with power. 

Sure, that wouldn't be "good"  but i don't have the power to start a nuclear war. So the "sin" or bad karma or whatever would fall into those who did make that decision using their free will. Not me.  It's still an act of free will - just not mine. 

Babies don't have any power and so cannot have any free will. Again the sin falls to those making the choices for them. In your world view,  those who choose to abort are making an evil choice etc. It has nothing to do with the free will of the baby. Just as Trump pressing a button has nothing to do with my free will or my level of "sin".

Is it murder in either case? I don't know or really care. I can only be responsible for my own beliefs and actions. If I think it is,  then it is. If I don't,  then whether you think it is or not makes little difference. In christy religion the only judge is the one upstairs and He decides who to let in or send below. 

The messy part is when humans try to mix laws and religion. Making abortion illegal is trying to fathom the mind of God and pre-empting his judgement. Making murder illegal is different. It has been decided that the moment of birth is the landmark between human and not. Whether that's correct or not will never really be known. But we have to have some marker of delineation in order to function as a society. Thou shalt not kill is fine as a way of keeping society in order. But we have to be able to complete that sentence. We kill animals to eat. We kill in self defence. We kill accidentally. Some places have decided that killing a foetus is illegal. But that's a law in those places. A human law. An interpretation that fits their society. Doesn't mean it fits ours. Or everyone's. Doesn't mean it's God's will either. 

 

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On 8/31/2018 at 7:03 AM, eveln said:

Tell me, what makes you think that ever stopping the right of a legal hygienically done abortion is going to cure mankind of his instinctive desire to hurt those less capable than him/her ?

I don't think that.

On 8/31/2018 at 7:28 AM, Chaos.Lady said:

Don't confuse free will with power. 

Sure, that wouldn't be "good"  but i don't have the power to start a nuclear war. So the "sin" or bad karma or whatever would fall into those who did make that decision using their free will. Not me.  It's still an act of free will - just not mine. 

Babies don't have any power and so cannot have any free will. Again the sin falls to those making the choices for them. In your world view,  those who choose to abort are making an evil choice etc. It has nothing to do with the free will of the baby. Just as Trump pressing a button has nothing to do with my free will or my level of "sin".

Is it murder in either case? I don't know or really care. I can only be responsible for my own beliefs and actions. If I think it is,  then it is. If I don't,  then whether you think it is or not makes little difference. In christy religion the only judge is the one upstairs and He decides who to let in or send below. 

The messy part is when humans try to mix laws and religion. Making abortion illegal is trying to fathom the mind of God and pre-empting his judgement. Making murder illegal is different. It has been decided that the moment of birth is the landmark between human and not. Whether that's correct or not will never really be known. But we have to have some marker of delineation in order to function as a society. Thou shalt not kill is fine as a way of keeping society in order. But we have to be able to complete that sentence. We kill animals to eat. We kill in self defence. We kill accidentally. Some places have decided that killing a foetus is illegal. But that's a law in those places. A human law. An interpretation that fits their society. Doesn't mean it fits ours. Or everyone's. Doesn't mean it's God's will either. 

Who "decided that the moment of birth is the landmark between human and not"?

"Reality does not care what you think." - Dr Richard Feynman

I wasn't confusing free will with power.

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People need to be in short supply before we really begin to cherish the existence of us all

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55 minutes ago, eveln said:

People need to be in short supply before we really begin to cherish the existence of us all

Speak for yourself.

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8 hours ago, NZT48 said:

I don't think that.

Who "decided that the moment of birth is the landmark between human and not"?

"Reality does not care what you think." - Dr Richard Feynman

I wasn't confusing free will with power.

 

That would be human law.  There has to be a delinator.  So they picked one.

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17 hours ago, NZT48 said:

Speak for yourself.

I am. It's my thought on what I see happening around me. The "we" is a reference to the individuals I read and hear about behaving in extraordinary dreadful ways toward their cherished fellow/s. ... and being of the same species, I say " we "

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On 8/31/2018 at 1:51 AM, Kothos said:

For the same reason I don't visit high security mental hospitals for the criminally insane to get help with my maths homework.

What is that reason?

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On 01/09/2018 at 10:23 PM, NZT48 said:

Show me the law.

Well if that's not the law according to reality, show me the real law.

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On 8/31/2018 at 1:11 AM, NZT48 said:

By that logic it is alright to kill anyone as long as it's done painlessly. Do you really believe that?

Only if they offer nothing of value to the society around them.
Right now we lock them up; but that's expensive.
In Jesus' day, they'd just stone them to death.

 

Also, Abortion can be murder in the human law, sure; but how do we know how a deity feels?
About the only thing we have to go on is books written by human hands.
Written AFTER its ALREADY admitted that humans were corrupted and impure (Adam Eve etc).
But since the 'Soul' (if you believe in one) is supposed to be eternal, and just returns to god (if you believe in one) if it's innocent, then no harm done.
In your belief system, a bag of flesh and bones is just a container for the soul, if that container isn't wanted, dispose of it, and send back the 'valuable' part.
No?

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7 hours ago, NZT48 said:

What is that reason?

LOL, I might be able to get help with my maths homework in a high security mental hospital, but I have more productive options elsewhere.

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53 minutes ago, Master_Scythe said:

Only if they offer nothing of value to the society around them.
Right now we lock them up; but that's expensive.
In Jesus' day, they'd just stone them to death.

 

 Also, Abortion can be murder in the human law, sure; but how do we know how a deity feels?
About the only thing we have to go on is books written by human hands.
Written AFTER its ALREADY admitted that humans were corrupted and impure (Adam Eve etc).
But since the 'Soul' (if you believe in one) is supposed to be eternal, and just returns to god (if you believe in one) if it's innocent, then no harm done.
In your belief system, a bag of flesh and bones is just a container for the soul, if that container isn't wanted, dispose of it, and send back the 'valuable' part.
No?

I do not believe it is okay to kill innocent people. We should aim for God's will to be done on Earth as it is in heaven. God can use them for the benefit of others on Earth.

The fact that we have all sinned does not mean we are all sinning now and it does not mean that the writing of The Bible was done in sin.

"Only if they offer nothing of value to the society around them.". Do you really believe that? Who can be the judge of that? How can it be judged? There is no telling what potential an unborn child has.

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13 minutes ago, NZT48 said:

... We should aim for God's will to be done on Earth as it is in heaven...

Well, I suppose that's fine. Yahweh prefers to wait until just after birth to kill them, possibly because Heaven lacks sophisticated medical technology. Or maybe it's just to satisfy his infamous penchant for violence (if the Holy Bible is to be believed).

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4 hours ago, NZT48 said:

I do not believe it is okay to kill innocent people.

I can't say I've ever met one (at least, not by the Bibles definition) Have you?

 

4 hours ago, NZT48 said:

The fact that we have all sinned does not mean we are all sinning now and it does not mean that the writing of The Bible was done in sin.

No, but it means it was entirely POSSIBLE.
This is the biggest catch of any religion, if you can PROVE the texts are 100% true, not just BELIEVE they're true, then suddenly there's a whole lot more credibility.

But you can't deny, since the writing was done AFTER man was able to sin, had been exposed to sin, and was perfectly capable of lying or being corrupted, there's no way to be sure, without ANY doubt, that the writings are truthful.

 

 

What I don't get from religious people is why the flesh matters.
EVERY religion goes on about your 'immortal soul' and how your SOUL will live on forever, etc etc.
You never hear about a need to preserve the BODY (since Ancient Egyptian, at least).

It's like owning the most precious thing in the world (whatever that may be) then having your dad beat you in eternal hatred and fury because you dared throw away the packaging.

Edited by Master_Scythe

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10 hours ago, Master_Scythe said:

In your belief system, a bag of flesh and bones is just a container for the soul, if that container isn't wanted, dispose of it, and send back the 'valuable' part.
No?

I think this is a bloody good question ... also, made me chuckle just a bit with the logic of it.

The flesh matters to the religious because more bodies on the earth potentially means more bums on seats worshipping and donating to the cause. << perhaps a little harsh, but amongst most of the powers that be in what ever religion one cares to look at, I think it's the one that matters for the continuity of what ever religious group it is.

Edited by eveln

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Personally I believe all abortion is killing,

Not all killing Is Murder.

I don't believe the early subdivisions of an embrio constitute a person, though at some point this changes.

Not sure how to decide when .

Maybe when it has sufficient nervous system and brain to respond to various stimulii abortion might not be allowed as a matter of convenience.

At that point maybe it should only be allowed for dire circumstances like the mother's at risk.

Could an easily accessible and effective morning after pill help avoid late term intervention.

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21 hours ago, NZT48 said:

There is no telling what potential an unborn child has.

Not necessarily, doctors can tell pretty reliably if the unborn child has the potential to kill its mother.

Murder, manslaughter, grievous bodily harm resulting in death... Take your pick.

If you think personhood begins at conception, then an infant should be sent to prison if they cause their mother's death.

I bet I know what you'll say next.

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On 9/10/2018 at 12:36 PM, Nich... said:

Which God?

Yahweh, the living god, the god of The Bible.

On 9/10/2018 at 4:04 PM, Master_Scythe said:

I can't say I've ever met one (at least, not by the Bibles definition) Have you?

 

No, but it means it was entirely POSSIBLE.
This is the biggest catch of any religion, if you can PROVE the texts are 100% true, not just BELIEVE they're true, then suddenly there's a whole lot more credibility.

But you can't deny, since the writing was done AFTER man was able to sin, had been exposed to sin, and was perfectly capable of lying or being corrupted, there's no way to be sure, without ANY doubt, that the writings are truthful.

 

 

What I don't get from religious people is why the flesh matters.
EVERY religion goes on about your 'immortal soul' and how your SOUL will live on forever, etc etc.
You never hear about a need to preserve the BODY (since Ancient Egyptian, at least).

It's like owning the most precious thing in the world (whatever that may be) then having your dad beat you in eternal hatred and fury because you dared throw away the packaging.

Don't get me wrong. I don't believe The Bible is perfect. In fact I am certain that it is not. I am also certain that it is inspired by God though.

I don't know whether or not I have met someone innocent. I am not the judge of that. I do believe that unborn children are innocent though.

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