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NZT48

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6 hours ago, NZT48 said:

Did you not read what I quoted from Currency Act 1965? I'll quote the relevant part again for you. "A  person shall not make or issue a piece of gold, silver, copper, nickel, bronze or of any other material, whether metal or otherwise, of any value...as a token for  money..."

I think you're deliberately choosing a very narrow interpretation of that text to fit your ideological position.

You can't make a coin and say "this is a dollar". That's all it's saying. You can make your own coin from whatever you want and call it whatever you want, you just can't purport that it is an Australian Dollar, because that's forgery. The law prevents you from creating counterfeit Australian Dollars, not from creating a token for your own micro-economy if you so wished.

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There are several jurisdictions in Australia that use their own money. Also BarterCard comes to mind. I used to be a member of that for my own business.

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42 minutes ago, Kothos said:

There are several jurisdictions in Australia that use their own money.

Tell me more.

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When I go into a bank or forex service, and I am selling my leftover currency from overseas, that seems like foreign currency is being used as a token of money.

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18 hours ago, NZT48 said:

How do you know "most want our standard currency"? Have you done a survey? 

I don't need to. The bills already explicitly tell me what currency they want.
If I don't want to pay them in that currency, they stop providing a service. Very simple.

Those who DON'T want our standard currency (and I do have one) offer things like Bitcoin or other payment.
For example, TunnelBear allows me to pay, by sending them jars of honey. https://www.tunnelbear.com/pricing
And no, it's not a joke.

18 hours ago, NZT48 said:

The berries are not like our money or leaves in that they have intrinsic value.

What value is that? Say the only berry on the island is Deadly Nightshade; so... we can kill people with it... and that's about all. VALUE!

18 hours ago, NZT48 said:

We are not permitted to use whatever we want as money actually. Did you not read what I quoted from Currency Act 1965? I'll quote the relevant part again for you. "A  person shall not make or issue a piece of gold, silver, copper, nickel, bronze or of any other material, whether metal or otherwise, of any value...as a token for  money..."

 

That simply means government institutions won't bank\trade in anything else. What we do person to person in terms of barter isn't policed.
They Govenernment (and gov backed banks) has simply told you what currency THEY want.

Just like if you open a business, you can request\demand Silver or Gold for your services.

You are one of those people who believe what you read (the bible, the currency act, etc). So let me be your savior and awaken you my child!
Just because it's written on something, no matter how official, doesn't mean it's enforced. I know right? Shocked?! I'm not....
No one is going to lock me up for 'paying' for my tow using a case of beer.
No one is going to lock up VPN users for posting a jar of honey.

If you start looking into old laws that aren't enforced, you'll be AMAZED at whats actually illegal.
Awaken my chidl! Just because it's written does not make it true!

 

18 hours ago, NZT48 said:

Something that has not been considered in this thread is cryptocurrencies. I must look into it.

It's called money.
It's just another currency, you'll hate it.

15 hours ago, NZT48 said:

Tell me more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Hutt_River

Now, off you go, leave the rest of Australia to living like sane people.

Edited by Master_Scythe

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On 9/11/2018 at 11:00 PM, Nich... said:

Why aren't the police removing the bitcoin ATMs popping up?

Because they are not illegal I'm guessing.

On 9/11/2018 at 11:56 PM, Nich... said:

When I go into a bank or forex service, and I am selling my leftover currency from overseas, that seems like foreign currency is being used as a token of money.

Read what I quoted from the act.

On 9/12/2018 at 8:49 AM, Master_Scythe said:

I don't need to. The bills already explicitly tell me what currency they want.
If I don't want to pay them in that currency, they stop providing a service. Very simple.

Those who DON'T want our standard currency (and I do have one) offer things like Bitcoin or other payment.
For example, TunnelBear allows me to pay, by sending them jars of honey. https://www.tunnelbear.com/pricing
And no, it's not a joke.

What value is that? Say the only berry on the island is Deadly Nightshade; so... we can kill people with it... and that's about all. VALUE!

 

That simply means government institutions won't bank\trade in anything else. What we do person to person in terms of barter isn't policed.
They Govenernment (and gov backed banks) has simply told you what currency THEY want.

Just like if you open a business, you can request\demand Silver or Gold for your services.

You are one of those people who believe what you read (the bible, the currency act, etc). So let me be your savior and awaken you my child!
Just because it's written on something, no matter how official, doesn't mean it's enforced. I know right? Shocked?! I'm not....
No one is going to lock me up for 'paying' for my tow using a case of beer.
No one is going to lock up VPN users for posting a jar of honey.

If you start looking into old laws that aren't enforced, you'll be AMAZED at whats actually illegal.
Awaken my chidl! Just because it's written does not make it true!

 

It's called money.
It's just another currency, you'll hate it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Hutt_River

Now, off you go, leave the rest of Australia to living like sane people.

I have been well aware that "Just because it's written on something, no matter how official, doesn't mean it's enforced" and I did not say anything to the contrary.

When you say "if you open a business, you can request\demand Silver or Gold for your services" do you mean you can do it successfully without facing legal consequences? If so, how do you know? Are you aware of one case of this happening?

I know barter isn't policed. It's legal and you are supposed to pay tax on it. Using gold or silver coins is another matter.

The value of the berry is that it has energy and nutritional value and it tastes good. The leaf has no value.

Regarding what currency people want: I understand what you are saying and it is correct but the point I was trying to make is that perhaps they would ask for money with intrinsic value if it was legal.

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6 hours ago, NZT48 said:

When you say "if you open a business, you can request\demand Silver or Gold for your services" do you mean you can do it successfully without facing legal consequences? If so, how do you know? Are you aware of one case of this happening?

coins-1-932x524.jpg

Arcade tokens look a lot like coins to me.

Basically every arcade used these from the mid nineties onwards, some still today. Given their prevalence across that time, it should be easy for you to find a case of an arcade operator being charged for simply "making coins", which is what you're claiming is illegal.

If you can find such a case, I'll eat my hat.

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On 9/2/2018 at 10:21 PM, NZT48 said:

I think the Australian government should buy lots of precious metals and then offer them in exchange for the currency we use now.

You mean like the Venezuelan Petro which is tied to barrels of oil?

Not only are you extremely repetitive, DMB, but you also consistently show that your missing U needs to be added back in.

Everything you complain about, has been tried, found wanting, and just as (if not more) compromise-able by governments with nefarious strategies. 

On 9/10/2018 at 11:11 AM, NZT48 said:

It''s a medium of exchange, a unit of account, portable, durable, divisible, fungible and a store of value.

Really?

Apart from over-priced jewellery, gold has value only through investment pushing prices up. It is not an exceedingly useful metal and if you were to take away it's historical value, it would be worthless today.

So from the point of view of a store of value, it has the exact same properties as a $100 note. Its value is what we assign to it.

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So if I want to buy a Freddo Frog, can I pay with a microscopic fleck of dust that I claim is gold?

Gold actually is useful in areas like electronics and science.  But take away the investment bullshit and it's real value would be more like $75-$100 an ounce.

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Gold and Silver have high investment value because it's been used as currency for the last two thousand years. It's only in the last 100 years this has changed. The $US  was denominated in Gold originally, which become Silver later. Now it's just paper fiat of which there's trillions of it.

Older societies like China and India still value Gold very highly. In the 1970s, some economists predicted Gold would become worthless but that has not happened.

Edited by Jeruselem

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On 9/16/2018 at 5:20 PM, NZT48 said:

When you say "if you open a business, you can request\demand Silver or Gold for your services" do you mean you can do it successfully without facing legal consequences? If so, how do you know? Are you aware of one case of this happening?

I already gave you one, TunnelBear.
While it's not gold or silver, it's Honey, which is a non FIAT currency.

Why do you suggest the TYPE of 'non-money' matters. Isn't your whole point money vs not-money?

 

And besides, if I want to pay you in gold, and you want to own gold, what's the harm in converting it to 'Money' in the middle?
I can make my gold money, hand you the money, and you can make the money gold.
As far as I'm concerned it just saves me a lot of money on Testing Equipment. And saves you a lot of time while I send away to a lab to check purity.

Is your whole argument trying to just avoid effort?

On 9/16/2018 at 5:20 PM, NZT48 said:

The value of the berry is that it has energy and nutritional value and it tastes good. The leaf has no value.

Hmm, this unnamed possibly poisonous berry has value over a leaf? an unnamed leaf that might have medicinal properties if crushed?
How do you know this? You make a lot of assumptions without an ounce of proof (though, I understand that's how your entire life is based, and you enjoy that).

 

On 9/16/2018 at 5:20 PM, NZT48 said:

Regarding what currency people want: I understand what you are saying and it is correct but the point I was trying to make is that perhaps they would ask for money with intrinsic value if it was legal.

It is legal. Even if the EXACT word of the law might say otherwise, it's simply 'wrong'. As I said, there are a LOT of old laws that got forgotten with age, rather than repealed.
So long as you declare it, it's legal to accept as income.

If you DON'T want to declare it, or hate Tax, then move to a country without tax. (United Arab Emirates, for example, has 0% tax )
https://www.google.com/search?q=UAE+0%+tax&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Edited by Master_Scythe

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On 9/17/2018 at 11:18 AM, Leonid said:

Really?

Yes.

On 9/17/2018 at 11:18 AM, Leonid said:

Apart from over-priced jewellery, gold has value only through investment pushing prices up.

That is a lie.

On 9/17/2018 at 11:18 AM, Leonid said:

It is not an exceedingly useful metal and if you were to take away it's historical value, it would be worthless today.

That is a lie.

On 9/17/2018 at 11:18 AM, Leonid said:

So from the point of view of a store of value, it has the exact same properties as a $100 note.

That is a lie. Gold is worth a lot more than plastic.

On 9/17/2018 at 11:18 AM, Leonid said:

Its value is what we assign to it.

It has value because we have confidence it will be accepted by others. Plastic has very little intrinsic value. Gold is different.

On 9/17/2018 at 11:31 AM, Rybags said:

So if I want to buy a Freddo Frog, can I pay with a microscopic fleck of dust that I claim is gold?

Perhaps we should use less valuable valuable metals and/or electronic transfers (perhaps cryptocurrencies) with banks doing the physical stuff behind the scenes.

On 9/18/2018 at 4:31 PM, Master_Scythe said:

I already gave you one, TunnelBear.

You didn't actually. We said "Silver or Gold". Honey is not silver or gold.

On 9/18/2018 at 4:31 PM, Master_Scythe said:

While it's not gold or silver, it's Honey, which is a non FIAT currency.

Honey is not a currency. Using honey is barter.

On 9/18/2018 at 4:31 PM, Master_Scythe said:

Why do you suggest the TYPE of 'non-money' matters. Isn't your whole point money vs not-money?

I don't know what you mean.

On 9/18/2018 at 4:31 PM, Master_Scythe said:

And besides, if I want to pay you in gold, and you want to own gold, what's the harm in converting it to 'Money' in the middle?

  1. If everyone realised what a crap idea using money without intrinsic value is then the money we are using now would be next to worthless and the bullion companies wouldn't accept it.
  2. Bother.
  3. Overhead.
On 9/18/2018 at 4:31 PM, Master_Scythe said:

Hmm, this unnamed possibly poisonous berry has value over a leaf? an unnamed leaf that might have medicinal properties if crushed?
How do you know this? You make a lot of assumptions without an ounce of proof (though, I understand that's how your entire life is based, and you enjoy that).

You want me to prove that MY THEORETICAL island has leaves without poison and medicinal properties? I am saying it does so it does.

On 9/18/2018 at 4:31 PM, Master_Scythe said:

It is legal. Even if the EXACT word of the law might say otherwise, it's simply 'wrong'. As I said, there are a LOT of old laws that got forgotten with age, rather than repealed.
So long as you declare it, it's legal to accept as income.

How do you know that?

On 9/18/2018 at 4:31 PM, Master_Scythe said:

If you DON'T want to declare it, or hate Tax, then move to a country without tax. (United Arab Emirates, for example, has 0% tax )

I love this country so I think I'll stay here and try to get rid of the tax here.

14 hours ago, Kothos said:
On 9/11/2018 at 11:08 PM, Kothos said:

There are several jurisdictions in Australia that use their own money.

That is not in Australia.

On 9/21/2018 at 4:44 PM, robzy said:

1ZHFUwP.png

I don't get it.

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7 hours ago, NZT48 said:

That is a lie. Gold is worth a lot more than plastic.

It has value because we have confidence it will be accepted by others. Plastic has very little intrinsic value. Gold is different.

You've no idea how you're contradicting yourself do you? Gold doesn't have as many industrial uses as some of its fellow precious metals like silver, platinum, and palladium.

It's one of the least useful metals.

It is also a shithouse asset as a store of value. Since the late 70s, gold's increased in value by 450%,  but the Personal Consumer Expenditure Index (basically, inflation) has increased by 765% or some such number. On the other hand, investing in equities would've seen an increase of about 2350% over the same time frame.

Equities don't need to be stored securely, insured, etc.

Gold's a shithouse store of value because it has no value. It's not useful except for overpriced jewellery. It's why when you trade in your $10000 gold ring for it's gold value, you'll get a few hundred bucks.

 

On the other hand, plastic is useful. Polymer especially.

But that's not the argument.

The argument is that gold as a gold standard should be a peg to the money supply. That's a horrible idea because gold is increasingly worthless based on the very criteria you saddle it with. 

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Y'know, if ye want intrinsic value, you really should coin plutonium. It's rare as fuck, since it doesn't occur naturally (well, except in trace amounts); people would be highly incentivised to spend it, since hanging onto a radioactive is a bad idea, thus keeping the economy ticking over; people/banks trying to hoard it might run the risk of nuking themselves, thus preventing wealth concentration; and tax collectors die of cancer. It's wins all 'round!  ?

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OK for a while he was funny because of his outright stupidity.
Now he's just being deliberately stupid.
Where did you get this broken idea of gold standard being useful in modern era?

Edited by Master_Scythe

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17 hours ago, NZT48 said:

I love this country so I think I'll stay here and try to get rid of the tax here.

That's fucking STUPID.
We need more, but better defined tax here.
Rich are too rich (eg negative gearing and off shore trading) and the poor too easily jump a tax bracket.
Fuck off out of my country if you want to 'get rid of tax'.
I don't need the 'big boys' suddenly having all the power because they have all the income, and don't pay any tax anymore!

 

17 hours ago, NZT48 said:

How do you know that?

Because I live here and have common sense.

 

17 hours ago, NZT48 said:

You want me to prove that MY THEORETICAL island has leaves without poison and medicinal properties? I am saying it does so it does.

That is a Lie.
You're trying to corrupt our leaf trade by changing the standard once it's already been agreed upon, you're a criminal dictator aren't you?

17 hours ago, NZT48 said:

That is a lie. Gold is worth a lot more than plastic.

BULLSHIT.
That is fucking ignorant BULLSHIT.

Tell me this genius, If I took away everything in your life made of plastic what would you have that STILL WORKS?

ALL Electronics? Nope. Insulation is gone
Car? Nope. No tubing or tyres
Clothing? Hmm, sorry, only if its cotton or wool. Underwear is gone if it has elastic....
Shoes? Nope gone.
House? Nope, sorry, PAINT is a plastic product, its gonna rot.
Eye Glasses? Nah, sorry, our medical breakthrough of optical plastics are all gone.
Toilet? Nope. No float in the bowel, and no seat.
Going up a scale? all our assembly machines? broken, things like medical devices can no longer be manufactured.

I could go on literally all day.

What if i took away all gold?
Some high end electronics would stop, without their gold fingers, but that's probably about all.... maybe a watch?
How many things do you own, that are necessities of life (aka have 'intrinsic value') that are made of gold?

Telling us plastic has no intrinsic value in modern life is just the most retarded argument I've ever heard EVER.
We rely on plastic for nearly EVERYTHING we do!

You're parroting someone aren't you?
Someone in some stupid article or probably youtube brainwash fest said 'intrinsic value' and now you just repeat it?
Gold is useful, sure, compared to plastic? IS NEAR USELESS!

Don't confuse rarity with 'intrinsic value'.
GOLD HAS NEAR NO INTRINSIC VALUE IN OUR SOCIETY COMPARED TO PLASTIC.

Quote

The intrinsic value of something is said to be the value that that thing has “in itself,” or “for its own sake,” or “as such,” or “in its own right.”

Usefulness of a vat of uncured polyurethane, vs vat of molten gold.... one is infinitely more useful, and both logic and common sense say it's not the gold.
Sheet of perspex vs sheet of gold? Yeah... if there was no dollar value? I'll take the perspex thanks.
ABS tube vs Gold tube? Yeah ABS will withstand the weather, gold is too soft, plastic again thanks.
I've made my point.

Gold has very little intrinsic value even when it WAS the standard.
To be used for anything (other than money) we had to blend it with other things.
Not plastic!
It's useful in the form it comes in.

 

The ignorance is genuinely painful!

Edited by Master_Scythe

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