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NZT48

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When I was commenting on plastic's value I was talking about how much it is worth, not how useful it is.

United States came off the last remnants of a gold standard in 1971. The cumulative rate of inflation from 1970 to 2018 is 550%. In 1970 gold was worth $35.17. In 2018 it is worth $1250.45. That's an increase of 3,555%.

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2 hours ago, NZT48 said:

When I was commenting on plastic's value I was talking about how much it is worth, not how useful it is.

No you weren't.

You SPECIFICALLY said MULTIPLE times "INTRINSIC VALUE", and now you're trying to backpedal.

 

And 'worth' in what? Money? The Money that you say is worthless?
Because if we go back to a 'gold standard' and you want to trade your barrel of gold for my barrel of polyurethane, based on intrinsic value, you can go and fuck yourself with the sharp end of a rake.

And that's the point anyway. In modern manufacturing it has almost NO worth.
Outside of corrosion resistance its a pretty useless metal.

Edited by Master_Scythe

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40 minutes ago, NZT48 said:

When I was commenting on plastic's value I was talking about how much it is worth, not how useful it is.

LOL

Oh dear.

Looks like you don't know what "intrinsic" means! Aw bless!

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49 minutes ago, NZT48 said:

United States came off the last remnants of a gold standard in 1971. The cumulative rate of inflation from 1970 to 2018 is 550%. In 1970 gold was worth $35.17. In 2018 it is worth $1250.45. That's an increase of 3,555%.

What's your point? Why does it matter?
Most secure investments will match inflation, like government backed stocks.

Inflation doesn't hurt anyone unless you're a "pure cash under the mattress" nutjob.

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Maybe I got the definition of "intrinsic value" wrong. If so then I apologise.

MS, that was in response to Leonid's post.

6 minutes ago, Nich... said:

Well we know which door is the liar.

What does that mean?

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15 minutes ago, NZT48 said:

Maybe I got the definition of "intrinsic value" wrong. If so then I apologise.

OK, so now that we agree that gold has little intrinsic value (it's useless outside of corrosion resistance).

We've established thanks to Leonid, that the inflation on Gold value is fairly close to global inflation anyway (only about 200% out compared).

We've established that 'testing' gold for purity with every sale is a lengthy and difficult process (much counterfeiting would ensue)

We've also established that you can ask for gold as payment legally, so long as you declare its value and pay appropriate tax.

And you didn't argue with my claim that we need MORE taxes, but better targeted; so the rich get less 'breaks' and the poor get more tax breaks.

 

What of your argument is left to defend?
We've just disproved the gold standard as being a good idea.

 

Edited by Master_Scythe

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On 9/22/2018 at 6:39 PM, NZT48 said:

That is a lie. Gold is worth a lot more than plastic.

On what basis?

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?

Industrially gold is mostly of value for its conductivity, in electronics especially although even then silver and copper are better but more prone to corrosion over time.

Apart from that it's mostly used in jewellery, with horrendous markups.

We still mine a fair bit of it, although it is quite rare but you might not believe that if you saw the Big Pit at Kalgoorlie or went down in a South African gold mine.

Gold jewellery is really nothing more than a very successful marking effort over many, many years although manufacturing jewelers like it because it is malleable, easy to work with and it looks good, to some people.

Cheers

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MS, I'm pretty sure they want the system to keep working as it is now, except the AUD is backed by a quantity of gold and it's speculative price, rather than people investing directly in the AUD. 

ie, 'gosh darnit, it's just not right!'

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The Ascent of Money is a great TV series to watch if you want to see and understand the pivotal moments in the creation of money and economies.  The textbook answer to what is money being the classic line money is what money does, or its a way to price and trade/transfer risk - often doesn't leave many the wiser; this series will!  Plus the narrator does for money what top gear did for cars - they make it really interesting and the content really accessible.

 

 

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2 hours ago, NZT48 said:

Maybe I got the definition of "intrinsic value" wrong. If so then I apologise.

"We should use money with intrinsic value"

"We should use money with intrinsic value"

"We should use money with intrinsic value"

"We should use money with intrinsic value"

"We should use money with intrinsic value"

"We should use money with intrinsic value"

"I don't know what 'intrinsic value' means."

Literally you.

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5 hours ago, Nich... said:

It means someone here is a liar.  Or a door.  Or both.

How can someone be a door?

4 hours ago, Master_Scythe said:

OK, so now that we agree that gold has little intrinsic value (it's useless outside of corrosion resistance).

Actually it has other uses too.

4 hours ago, Master_Scythe said:

We've established thanks to Leonid, that the inflation on Gold value is fairly close to global inflation anyway (only about 200% out compared).

I believe the conclusion depends on the data you use. Check out what I posted in response.

4 hours ago, Master_Scythe said:

We've established that 'testing' gold for purity with every sale is a lengthy and difficult process (much counterfeiting would ensue)

You don't know much counterfeiting would ensue and what's the harm in having it done electronically with the banks doing the physical stuff in the background like I suggested earlier?

4 hours ago, Master_Scythe said:

We've also established that you can ask for gold as payment legally, so long as you declare its value and pay appropriate tax.

Legally we may not use gold coins which is a pain because we would have weigh it.

4 hours ago, Master_Scythe said:

And you didn't argue with my claim that we need MORE taxes, but better targeted; so the rich get less 'breaks' and the poor get more tax breaks.

I'm leaving that for another thread.

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13 minutes ago, NZT48 said:

 

Made my point for me.

Compare it's uselessness compared to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic

Not much there, is there?
Nearly every use requires it no longer be gold, and become a gold alloy.

And that which doesn't is literally a practice in exorbitance, no?
And as gluttony is a Sin and I know you're religious, this would be bad for your interests.

Edited by Master_Scythe

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34 minutes ago, NZT48 said:

Legally we may not use gold coins which is a pain because we would have weigh it.

You're yet to provide a basis for this claim.

Specifically, all you've done is quote the law, you haven't provided any precedent for your narrow and specific interpretation of it.

I realise that in your head, you saying "I think we should XYZ" is sufficient explanation for anything and everything, but out here on planet Earth, you'll need to be a bit more specific.

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The problem with plastic is the pollution it can cause from careless people, we did ban supermarket plastic bags for a reason although that does annoy me a bit, I used to use them for all sorts of things, now I have to buy small garbags.

Cheers

 

 

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Yes, I, too, find my $5 note has less value now I can't use free plastic bags from the supermarket to put my trash in.

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People have used gold and other metals to adorn themselves with for thousands of years... also, you can buy cheap gold jewellery at most of the large  chain stores so this idea that all gold jewellery is marked up by 3 times or whatever is another one of those quirky catch - phrases
with not nearly the strength of truth behind it that might once have been ? Also, I was under the impression that all gold used for trade purposes was pre-tested and stamped with it's applicable stamp of content. At least,  I thought that was the case.

Also instead of the degradable free bags previously issued  I now have to buy "rubbish" bags ... I don't quite know how degradable they are, but they have a pretty yellow-ish stripe and a fake lemon scent, and they be the right size for my bin . All of which I find a very questionable substitution  wrt the
health and care of our water ways and landfill sites.

... just sayin'

Edited by eveln

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I've already seen people putting reusable shopping bags in the bin. Experience with other states shows I think a 15% or 30% reduction of shopping bags in the environment? I honestly don't know if that's good enough, considering the reusable bags are less biodegradable.

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5 minutes ago, Kothos said:

 considering the reusable bags are less biodegradable. 

I'm not sure I believe that.
I have a world of horrible fabricy-papery-dust if you touch it-shit, floating over my whole house from where a bunch of reusable bags being used as storage have broken down in as little as 10 years, and decided that un-touchable confetti is the right way to die.

 

That said, with the removal of the normal plastic bags, when I shop, they just go through an arseload more of the plastic bags available in the fruit aisle.

Edited by Master_Scythe
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?

A idle thought did strike me - Australian dollar notes have been plastic for a long, long time, so in an odd way we do assign value to plastic ?

I have noticed that cheap "gold" jewellery in some places Ev, I more than suspect that it is low carat and an alloy, usually with copper I think. One girl I know had one of the cheap rings, in short order she had green marks under the ring on her finger. Real gold jewellery, usually 18 carat, does have a high markup but it is somewhat more complex than that. A manufacturing jeweler will tell you the markup is to cover his/her time and overhead, which is probably true but there still has to be a significant profit margin, you don't see jewelry shops going out of business too often...

Otherwise utterly agree with your comments, real gold jewelry in most countries has been manufactured from assayed gold and is indeed stamped to define what carat rating the gold used complies to.

The plastic bag ban is not really going to make much difference in the end, other than to cost us more, our supermarkets sell bags, granted of better quality plastic than the old freebies but people still toss them out, mental process being it only cost me 10c, but I'll bet that adds up to a lot of 10cs nationwide.

Even the quality issue is really rather duplicitous, as Kothos noted.

MS is quite right, the old freebies do break down, which is the point, they were biodegradable. I've never had them around for 10 years so not experienced that breakdown in the home, but it makes sense.

We used to use them as bin liners, nappy disposals, although I kind of hate disposable nappies, product of a society that seems to have forgotten what a nappy bucket is.

I babysit a couple of very young kids from time to time, have had to keep some cloth nappies around and explain to their mothers why it is a better way to go.

Marketing, a consumer oriented society and excuses like convenience and lack of time.

Rubbish.

You buy a pack of cloth nappies, a bucket, a plunger and a suitable detergent and with a little bit of effort all clean and sanitised and out on the line.

They will also last for more than one child, I'm one of five, my mother tells me her first buy went through four of us, she had not really expected the much later fifth, so had to buy again, and passed those along to her daughters for their kids.

All by the by,

Plastic is incredibly useful I agree, but the cost of the stuff is often hidden, at the petrol pump, it's in the main made from oil after all and oil is not cheap to extract, very close to the cost of mining various ores. Living in W.A. we mine and drill for just about everything, raw company costs are about the same.

We seem to have forgotten there are natural products, cellulose for example, that can be tailored to do the same job as plastic, then turned into fertiliser to grow more source product ?

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

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I am not meaning to backup Nich... everywhere. But it is very funny that Nich... suggests that plastic pollution and super market bags are not relevant to this discussion about money, and Atomic's response was to bring up how nappies were better back in the day.

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