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Master_Scythe

Bullying: The risk with 'accepting differences'.

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Well this escalated slowly.

Isaac Asimov once wrote that violence is the last resort of the incompetent.  However, I'd argue that ever human who ever lived can encounter a situation that is beyond their competence to solve non-violently.

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2 hours ago, chrisg said:

Do not be so fucking stupid...

Who initiated all of this ?

The useless little prick who was tormenting my daughter.

That would probably justify murder if not manslaughter in your eyes, I guess.  I mean, you didn't start it, so it's ok, you were just protecting you and yours.

Your bullying of the kid that bullied your kid is what lead directly to that other kid's father coming to have a go at you for  bullying their kid.  Got it, or do I need to really dumb it down?

Like I said, some people can't see that they're a bully, because their personal narrative doesn't allow it.  Same reason you probably have a few politicians in Canberra who believe the shit they say and sell, rather than just cynically playing the game.

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7 hours ago, ResidentNeville said:

> Not bragging

Yes it was. Read it again.

It doesn't really matter whether it's bragging or no ... one can still retain lots of info and have brain issues caused by all sorts of bangs and stresses ... that is my point

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?

No Nich, you are not going to get it.

If I had not have taught that kid a lesson he would have just kept on doing it, which would not have been acceptable and upon recollection I did go have a talk to him but he just smirked at me which was when I took him to the principal. That didn't work so i booted him out of the place.

I have no idea what his father was attempting but I did learn afterwards that he had quite the reputation around the place for thuggery - like father like son I suppose. Either way never seen again.

If you think standing up to a bully makes you a bully sobeit, but you are wrong and it seems to me you are simply defending your first comment.

As for braggery, no, I like to teach, pass along skills, I do not do it full time but I have teacher friends who get me in for special classes from time to time. I've also been both a flying and a driving instructor. In my view you pay extra attention to the pupils who are having difficulties, a lot of teachers don't, they just write them off as incompetent.

That is really not teaching in my view.

I do from time to time do a special class, an introduction to science fiction and Asimov did indeed say that, but then again I tend to think of Asimov somewhat differently to his reputation, give me Heinlein or Herbert over him any day.

Cheers

 

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> As for braggery, no

Mayte, its right there in black-and-white. In an attempt to defend your intelligence you bragged that you teach something so complicated that half your students glaze over with confusion.

> My grey matter is perfectly fine Ev, I occasionally teach a course on bi normal algebra - no disrespect because half my students glaze over as well, and not out of boredom, simple confusion

I don't know any teacher that would brag about students glazing over from confusion.

There's also no such thing as "bi normal algebra." That's not a term used by anyone who actually works with those things. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I assume that you're referring to one of the few mathematical concepts with the word "binormal" in them. None of these concepts should be particularly challenging to learn nor teach, though. Giving you double benefit of the doubt, I'll assume that you're not a crap teacher, and that you just deal with "bi normal algebra" that I nor Google have heard about - care to be more specific? I want to learn more about this challenging branch of mathematics.

But, it appears I am rambling off topic...

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I don't think you get it.  All the things you claim you were doing, can be done without bullying someone.  But you didn't, and you can't seem to deconflate them, now.

You haven't even shown recognition that what you did was bullying and provoked a chain of events, nor alone accepted you were responsible for your own actions, let alone any remorse over the fact. 

I'm generally happy to leave well enough alone, and read your posts as entertainment and not get caught up over them.  But I'm not really happy to stand by and let someone brag about bullying kids as if it was their only possible option, and not take responsibility for it.

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23 minutes ago, Nich... said:

But I'm not really happy to stand by and let someone brag about bullying kids as if it was their only possible option, and not take responsibility for it.

This is probably personal opinion, but one instance of 'handling a situation badly' =\= 'Bullying'.

While on strict definition it does, I really object to using that term for single instances of conflict.
I was almost always on the receiving end, and I'd hate for the REAL bullying to be watered down by "This guy had one fight" or even "Today, we fought all day!"
It should be used for more lasting, or ongoing harassment.... IMO.

Edited by Master_Scythe

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No, I'm pretty happy to call it bullying when an adult can't get their way and goes after a kid who is presumably less than half their size: I imagine there was a very deliberate use of implied threat as well as actual, psychological as well as physical.  I'll leave it up to you on whether this is part of an ongoing pattern or a one-off incident, but what else would you want to call it?  Out and out assault?  Abuse?

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No, I'm pretty happy to call it bullying when an adult can't get their way and goes after a kid who is presumably less than half their size:

 

Fair enough, I'd probably call it a fight.
I'd just have said 'I got in a fight'. I think it's naive to thing you can pick on someone and not have their 'defenders' step in.

For me, bullying should be reserved for long, and likely ongoing harassment.

 

26 minutes ago, Nich... said:

I imagine there was a very deliberate use of implied threat as well as actual, psychological as well as physical.  I'll leave it up to you on whether this is part of an ongoing pattern or a one-off incident, but what else would you want to call it?  Out and out assault?  Abuse?

We only have half the story, perhaps it's a life lesson, and the form in which it came is highly irrelevant?
If you're going to mess with a small thing, you really need to be damn sure there's not a bigger thing backing it up.

I stand by my earlier post;
I agree that most situations can be talked out of and should be.
However I genuinely do believe that not everyone is 'evolved' enough to be receptive of reasoning.

This is the whole Spanking vs No-Spanking argument.
If you ask a child to stop, and they blatantly refuse, what IS the appropriate response?

In the before example, I feel that the appropriate response was to talk to the governing body (in this case the school).
If we believe the story -  they refused to action.
So, genuinely, what IS next?
I guess you can go one above, and contact the board of education, or even the Police service?

Then, where does the bureaucracy get laughable when compared to discipline?

I worked in a school for 5 years, and I'm sure this will vary greatly depending on the locale;
However what I can say for sure at my location, is that when you ask a kid to stop, and the response is "Fuck you, make me", you can be PRETTY sure they're beyond reasoning.

For context, yes I AM going to stop the young adult (as they all wish to be treated once in high school) from throwing full bricks at cars in the parking lot.
No, I'm not going to wait another 5 bricks asking for a civil discourse.

We only have half the story really.

Edited by Master_Scythe

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I guess 'lets go and talk to your parent, you little shit' really is going out of fashion, if it's not something people think about somewhere between 'lets complain to the DoE/police', and 'lets bully someone into submission'.

I'd be more inclined to believe 'this is a life lesson taught in an unfortunate but effective way' if, you know, there was any sense of anything other than 'I am the hero in this story and there is no other alternative, how dare you question my honour' as a response.

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2 minutes ago, Nich... said:

I guess 'lets go and talk to your parent, you little shit' really is going out of fashion, if it's not something people think about somewhere between 'lets complain to the DoE/police', and 'lets bully someone into submission'.

Hoo Boy, is it EVER!

Once again, I'm sure this will differ in something like a $20k private school, but in EVERY school I worked in over 5 years, the usual response you can expect from a parent is one form or another of "Don't tell me how to raise my kid", or "You're the school, handle it"
I shared a single plywood wall with the Principals Office. Catch 22? The schools have had almost all power to 'handle it' stripped.
They can't even deny 'computer time' or keep them in at lunch anymore; both no longer allowed.

Even if the parent was receptive, you then also have the catch of whether or not a teen is "at that age" to respect their OWN parent.

We're never going to agree if you think something someone would call "a kick up the ass" is "Bullying into submission".
I've had my share of adults 'throwing my arm away' and telling me to get lost.
Or even a literal soft kick in the bottom.

I was misbehaving, they were in power, I would be naive to have expected otherwise, IMO.
And no, power does not equal right, but by 'misbehaving' I gave them right to discipline.
I was a teen, I was indeed old enough to know better, and i wasn't applying it.

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Let me put this another way:

My kids can be little monsters and have a bunch of issues to work through.  They've been bullied, and at least one of them has bullied others.  Talking to school and other parents is how it's been handled.  If either of those dealt with the problem, I'd be embarrassed that it went that far, but fine with it being resolved and being notified about it.  If I found out that some other parent decided to get physical with my kid to teach them a lesson, I'd be pretty pissed.  The object/life lesson there, from my POV, would be sitting my kids down and talking about adult bullies, and try to guide them away from that bad example.

That's apparently the thinking behind what chris did, too.  He just doesn't see anything wrong with giving it but not taking it.

The thing I loved about working in security is knowing that the law has a really clear approach to conflict escalation.  No-one's life was in immediate danger.  chris reacted emotionally and jumped a few steps because he thought he knew better.

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26 minutes ago, Nich... said:

If I found out that some other parent decided to get physical with my kid to teach them a lesson, I'd be pretty pissed. 

And there's the difference. Some parents are OK with others stopping their kids from doing wrong, and some are not.
It's about control, and who's going to have it.

 

26 minutes ago, Nich... said:

The object/life lesson there, from my POV, would be sitting my kids down and talking about adult bullies, and try to guide them away from that bad example.

That'll be based on each of our own personal life lessons growing up.
From my life experience growing up, I'd be explaining that if you start a fight (< important point here), you need to be sure that it's a fight you want to be in.
Older brothers, fathers, cousins, friends, all exist, and WILL backup the people they care about.

The fact that the person starting it might have been verbal only is irrelevant to me.
Usually the wordsmiths are the ones to fight with words, and they do so because it's their greatest weapon.
If I start a fight with my greatest weapon (these days, I'm the wordsmith IRL), I fully expect to be retaliated with their greatest weapon (and it's up to me, if I risk that being fists).

 

Once again, in context;
Year 8, I was so greatly verbally bullied by a group of 5, that the school was powerless to do anything.
I was made to watch while they methodically broke everything I owned.
I actually was found in tears in a ball in the corner and wouldn't move.
I had begged for mercy from them, and that OBVIOUSLY failed.
In panic I had lashed out, and well, 1v5 resulted in another failure.

From being there, IRL, my father showing up and reminding them (verbally), that  I have a family, so choose; Fuck off, or fists up, was the ONLY way I was going to feel safe again.
Even with 20\20 hindsight, IMO, that was the only way that was going to be diffused.
We were teens, 'parents asking their kids to stop' would have resulted in a resounding "fuck you" (no I can't be sure, but yes I can be confident... I spent many years in school with these 'people' after that).

Edited by Master_Scythe

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That sounds like a nice justification for gang violence.  Call off the police, they're just learning a life lesson!

I can't say I'm surprised when they fail, but I'd rather hold adults up to a higher standard than 'well of course you can go and beat someone up, their grandfather called your uncle bad words'.

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2 minutes ago, Nich... said:

I can't say I'm surprised when they fail, but I'd rather hold adults up to a higher standard than 'well of course you can go and beat someone up, their grandfather called your uncle bad words'.


Once again, life experience giving us a perception filter I'd say.
I gave humanity a chance once, and found a majority of knuckleheads to a minority of scholars.
I'm not mentally capable anymore to continue to hold adults to a standard they seem literally incapable of reaching.
I never instigate, however always expect the fists, and am pleasantly surprised when I instead get the discussion.

 

As for that hypothetical, A little different though, yeah?
That example is 2 people who hopefully have similar 'weapons' at their disposal (adult, educated, physically able, etc).
There's a chivalry in the strong defending the weak.

And before that's countered with a  'picking on someone smaller than you' cliche;
A side of the fence is often the ONLY factor in someones opinion of if you're attacking or defending.

Once again, my life lessons have taught me 2 things.
The guilt goes to the one who started it.
The pride goes to the one who finishes it.
HOW it finishes, is usually decided by whomever started it, and you need to be ready for anything.

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> This is probably personal opinion, but one instance of 'handling a situation badly' =\= 'Bullying'.
> While on strict definition it does, I really object to using that term for single instances of conflict.
> I was almost always on the receiving end, and I'd hate for the REAL bullying to be watered down by "This guy had one fight" or even "Today, we fought all day!"
> It should be used for more lasting, or ongoing harassment.... IMO.

This is nonsense. Bullying is the use of superior strength or influence to intimidate someone.

Bullying is bad. I'd hate for REAL bullying to be watered down by "it was only a once off".

Edited by ResidentNeville

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I'm going to try again... Perhaps communication in this thread might be improved if the side saying what chrisg did was bullying could propose what non-bullying course of action he could have taken to avoid any violence erupting.

I'm sure it's possible there was one, but I'm not sure it's fair to expect any or every human to think of it.

Edited by Kothos

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3 hours ago, Kothos said:

I'm going to try again... Perhaps communication in this thread might be improved if the side saying what chrisg did was bullying could propose what non-bullying course of action he could have taken to avoid any violence erupting.

I'm sure it's possible there was one, but I'm not sure it's fair to expect any or every human to think of it.

6 hours ago, Nich... said:

I guess 'lets go and talk to your parent, you little shit' really is going out of fashion, if it's not something people think about somewhere between 'lets complain to the DoE/police', and 'lets bully someone into submission'.

Surely you're not saying you'd rather a parent took out their frustration on your kids, if talking to their school couldn't resolve the issue, rather than coming to talk to you about it?  I'm not saying it wouldn't have lead to a confrontation, anyway, but I am saying that it's an important step to not just ignore and skip over.
 

 

On 25/09/2018 at 2:25 PM, chrisg said:

I maintain I did the best I could do in the circumstances.

21 hours ago, chrisg said:

... and received his just deserts.

I don't consider a violent emotional outburst ending in physical violence to be an appropriate solution to many things, but especially not to bullying.  All it does it model bullying as the solution to bullying.  If that's the best you can manage in a given circumstance, then I suspect it's not a once-off behaviour, but probably one in a long line of violent reactions when dealing with problems that can't be trivially solved by talking them out.

Edited by Nich...
Clarity

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1 hour ago, ResidentNeville said:

This is nonsense. Bullying is the use of superior strength or influence to intimidate someone.

I disagree.
As I said, I acknowledge it's dictionary definition (as i see that it's copypasta), but I strongly disagree.

For example, a Teacher telling their student not to make spitballs, otherwise they'll phone their parents\give them detention, 100% fits that definition.
However I wouldn't say the Teacher is bullying the Student.

Or if a thief was on a train,and  threatened you.
I wouldn't go to the cops and say "I was Bullied on the train!".

Even in school between students, if you get in a punch-up, you're sent away for fighting, not for bullying.

Here is one such authority on the issue.
https://kidshelpline.com.au/teens/issues/bullying

Quote

What is bullying?

It's more than just a fight or disliking someone.

  • It’s being mean to someone over and over again
  • Bullying is when someone or a group of people who have more power than you repeatedly use words or actions to hurt you

 

If you disagree, please submit it in writing to the kids helpline, so i know you're committed to your opinion, and CC me.

  • Like 1

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There's a difference between intimidating someone, and reminding them the consequences of their actions, IMO.

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51 minutes ago, Nich... said:

I don't consider a violent emotional outburst ending in physical violence to be an appropriate solution to many things, but especially not to bullying.  All it does it model bullying as the solution to bullying.  If that's the best you can manage in a given circumstance, then I suspect it's not a once-off behaviour, but probably one in a long line of violent reactions when dealing with problems that can't be trivially solved by talking them out.

I've only ever been in a single fight.
Only one.
It was caused by being bullied, and being in a situation where I finally had the upper hand.
This bullying went on for 3 years prior, with a therapist (for the bully), school suspensions, parent interaction, and a police call.
After spending some time away from school recovering, this bully no longer bothered with me.
IMO it's because he realized his prey is actually a lot bigger than him, and after 3 years finally learned that.

I'm sorry, but in instances like that, to be called a 'bully' because I was finally able to put an end to 3 years of genuine emotional hell, I find rather offensive.
My reaction was a Defense, after 3 years of exhausting the other options.

Does it fit the Dictionary definition as you are using as gospel? Sure.
Do I feel at all like a bully for just once standing up for myself? Fuck no, and I won't cop that.

I also have a very high level of respect for the KidsHelpline, and have done a LOT of work in youth development.
I respect their definition over a Dictionary.

4 minutes ago, Nich... said:

There's a difference between intimidating someone, and reminding them the consequences of their actions, IMO.

In the real world? Sure
By Dictionary definition? Nope.

They both define as 'Threat'
 

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21 minutes ago, Nich... said:

That's a significantly different scenario to the one chris described.

Very true, however this is why I'm trying to ask yourself and Neville to adopt a more industry appropriate use of the word 'bullying', and not use the dictionary for this one .
 

Worldwide Examples:

https://amaze.org/video/what-is-bullying/

Quote

Bullying is when one person hurts, harms or is mean to another person over and over again.

https://au.reachout.com/everyday-issues/bullying

Quote

Bullying happens when a person or a group of people repeatedly and intentionally use words or actions to cause distress and harm to another person’s wellbeing.

 

https://www.stopbullying.gov/what-is-bullying/index.html

Quote

Bullying is unwanted, aggressive behavior among school aged children that involves a real or perceived power imbalance. The behavior is repeated, or has the potential to be repeated, over time.

And last but not least;
Local Example

The national definition of bullying for Australian schools

https://bullyingnoway.gov.au/WhatIsBullying/DefinitionOfBullying

Quote

Bullying is an ongoing misuse of power in relationships through repeated verbal, physical and/or social behaviour that causes physical and/or psychological harm.

 

Was what ChrisG did possibly inappropriate?
It's possible, maybe even probable in peoples minds.

Was one 'Kick up the ass' bullying?
No;  it was a fight.

Edited by Master_Scythe
  • Like 1

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2 hours ago, Nich... said:

Are you saying you'd rather a parent took out their frustration on your kids, if talking to their school couldn't resolve the issue, rather than coming to talk to you about it?  I'm not saying it wouldn't have lead to a confrontation, anyway, but I am saying that it's an important step to not just ignore and skip over.

 

 

You really need to stop beginning your responses with, "Are you saying... " because it's not an effective debating tool and you're often wrong about what people are "saying".  Just ask questions and make your point as clearly as possible.

And no, I wasn't saying that.  If I was, I would have said that.  What I was saying, was what I said.  And now you've provided an answer (in your roundabout way) I know WTF you were talking about.

Perhaps you should have said that to chrisg in the first place.

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