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Master_Scythe

Bullying: The risk with 'accepting differences'.

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OK, I'll make my point as clearly as possible: if you're one step away from a violent solution, you're not really trying to avoid a violent solution.  If it involves kids, and not adults, then that's an even bigger problem.

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You are never going to get it are you Nich ?

Perhaps I was a little out of line in getting physical with the punk, but if I had taken him to his parent, single parent situation I found out later, the mother had walked out after domestic violence and the father had charges pending over that.

What would have happened ? His thug of a dad was and apparently still is not one to listen to reason. He was quite a bit larger than me, and I'm not small, he'd still have tried to hit me, which really is a very bad idea.

Because of this thread I checked up on him, he's inside, doing 12 to life for attempted manslaughter, no idea where his son is - somewhere better I hope.

 

Cheers

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You're right, I'm never going to get it because my first instinct isn't to reach for violence to solve a problem.  The thing is, you don't know what would have happened because you went straight to physical violence.

I'm glad it's ok because hindsight?

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5 minutes ago, Nich... said:

You're right, I'm never going to get it because my first instinct isn't to reach for violence to solve a problem.  The thing is, you don't know what would have happened because you went straight to physical violence.

I'm glad it's ok because hindsight?

?

Actually I rarely respond to violence but sometimes things just happen fast or are only going to escalate quickly so I react.

When it comes to my kids though. lay a finger on them and you have one very, very serious problem.

Cheers

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the real problem here is that kids arent allowed to carry guns

if all children were packing, every bully would have to think twice before starting something

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9 minutes ago, @~thehung said:

the real problem here is that kids arent allowed to carry guns

if all children were packing, every bully would have to think twice before starting something

?

 One of my kids came to the range once - a single shot scared the living daylights out of her ?

I tend to be wary of kids with knives, let alone guns - no thanks ?

 

Cheers

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9 hours ago, Master_Scythe said:

 

Fair enough, I'd probably call it a fight.
I'd just have said 'I got in a fight'. I think it's naive to thing you can pick on someone and not have their 'defenders' step in.

For me, bullying should be reserved for long, and likely ongoing harassment.

 

 

... but "once ", if the bully ( instigator) wins the fight, turns into more than "once" yes ? So it'd be a fair call to name that one instance a bully-shot, yes ? I mean it's a cowardly act to assault someone less capable than oneself.

 

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13 minutes ago, eveln said:

... but "once ", if the bully ( instigator) wins the fight, turns into more than "once" yes ? So it'd be a fair call to name that one instance a bully-shot, yes ? I mean it's a cowardly act to assault someone less capable than oneself.

 

?

And how would one know the relative competences Ev ?

The kid in question can these days toss a grown man clean across a room, seen her do it with one of her instructors, who thought it was hilarious, him being close to 150KG of muscle and her even now being less than 70 KG and tall and very feminine ?

I did ask her once why she didn't just toss the punk, she gave me the most pragmatic of schoolkid answers, because then she would have been blamed. Instead she put up with the little shit until dad arrived then the tears flowed, not for sympathy just holding them back.

Well, dad has no such compunctions, frankly I came rather close to dragging that useless principal out to witness just what was going on. Next day I went in and told him he was useless, also told him what had happened. What he said was " Yes that boy is difficult."  "Difficult!! he's a fucking menace, you are supposed to be in charge here, what do you do, guard the pencils ?"

I appreciate he had a lot of rules constraining him but even he was embarrassed by his inaction.

Frankly I don't give a shit what Nich thinks,, I've wondered rather often what world he lives in because it is not the real one.

To go off on a tangent it is rather disturbing to me that we only have one active moderator here these days, that is not good for any forum. I moderate on several, we tend to think three is about right. Ben once had a few too many, me included and he was right to cut it back but a couple more here would provide balance. This forum is not what it once was, we all know that, but Nich having to make all the decisions without recourse to peers is utterly not fair on him.

No, I do not want the job again but there are a number of good folks here who could be mods if they were willing.

It may or may not reinvigorate the place, but it could not hurt.

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, chrisg said:

?

And how would one know the relative competences Ev ?

 

Cheers

 

Well the winner of the physical assault wins right ??

So if the winner is the cowardly bully then the bullying continues right ... just like you would probably have gone back and given that kid another swift kick up the arse ( or worse) if he had continued to harass your kid.

If the ' victim' should override the bully, then who knows, maybe the assault stops there or maybe it moves onto something more insidious ... wtf knows

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28 minutes ago, eveln said:

Well the winner of the physical assault wins right ??

So if the winner is the cowardly bully then the bullying continues right ... just like you would probably have gone back and given that kid another swift kick up the arse ( or worse) if he had continued to harass your kid.

If the ' victim' should override the bully, then who knows, maybe the assault stops there or maybe it moves onto something more insidious ... wtf knows

That is the problem Ev, but all I wanted was for him to leave my kid alone, and he did. But I doubt he ceased to be a bully, elsewhere, it was just in his nature.

Funny though, I have a couple of rough and tumble friends who had some disagreement over something and fought themselves to a standstill. No reason for me to intervene, I just fetched the bandaids ?

Eventually they collapsed laughing in each others arms and went for a beer ?

Testosterone overload I guess - strange hormone that one.

Cheers

 

 

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1 hour ago, chrisg said:

o go off on a tangent it is rather disturbing to me that we only have one active moderator here these days, that is not good for any forum. I moderate on several, we tend to think three is about right. Ben once had a few too many, me included and he was right to cut it back but a couple more here would provide balance. This forum is not what it once was, we all know that, but Nich having to make all the decisions without recourse to peers is utterly not fair on him.

No, I do not want the job again but there are a number of good folks here who could be mods if they were willing.

It may or may not reinvigorate the place, but it could not hurt.

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

Wait, how many moderators does a forum with 5 active users need? LOL

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I'm not the only active mod.  I'm just the one that finds the time to still post.

PS chris, dig up.

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> Very true, however this is why I'm trying to ask yourself and Neville to adopt a more industry appropriate use of the word 'bullying', and not use the dictionary for this one .

Bullying is bad. Whether its recurring or a "once off". Your desire to use a different label for it when it's a "once off" doesn't change anything and is meaningless.

> I'm sorry, but in instances like that, to be called a 'bully' because I was finally able to put an end to 3 years of genuine emotional hell, I find rather offensive.

Who called you a bully?

 

Chrisg; I won't embarrass you by asking (again) what kind of bivariate algebra you taught.

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Oh I know that Nich, several people are still listed, including three Ben alts, and Evil Admin, but when were any of them really active ?

In real terms you are the only active mod.

I run a smallish bbq forum, mostly look after security, the three of us divide it up so there is pretty much always a mod around - works well, but I sort of agree with SS, we are a shadow of our former self, even the little bbq forum has three or times as many very active members.

Cheers

 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, chrisg said:

Oh I know that Nich, several people are still listed, including three Ben alts, and Evil Admin, but when were any of them really active ?

Three?

Backend admin accounts aren't meant to be active.  They're there to do their job as needed.

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i am inclined to characterise it as harassment and assault with extenuating circumstances rather than bullying.  

but whatever you call it, its still lizard-brained parental vigilantism that doesnt fly as the right thing to do™, at least not in 2018.

its true that "it takes a village" doesnt mean what it used to.  back when my dad was a juvenile, a kid getting a swift kick up the arse from a shop owner for low-level vandalism was all well and good.

in some ways we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater.  same goes for corporal punishment in schools: some kids would turn out better if it was still a thing. but, on balance, many more are better off without it.  that age has passed.

if your kid is victimised and you have no faith in the school system, then the first order of business is taking reasonable steps to address the issue verbally with a parent / legal guardian of the minor in question, with physically assaulting said minor being so far down the list as to not even be on the table.

yes, in the real world 'aresholes that cant be reasoned with' are a multi-generational fact, and i do not assume the current orthodoxy has satisfactory solutions in place for every circumstance.  but violence, especially against a kid must be assumed to be a last resort.

personally, if i ever found myself convinced that a physical altercation with a parent was inevitable/necessary, i think i would be angling to have that occur in the principal's office ?

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8 hours ago, chrisg said:

That is the problem Ev, but all I wanted was for him to leave my kid alone, and he did. But I doubt he ceased to be a bully, elsewhere, it was just in his nature.

 

Ohhhh right. So your behaviour didn't actually make a bully stop being a bully. So really, you giving that kid a kick up the bum made him scared of you, the big guy in the equation, the bully's bully.

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13 hours ago, chrisg said:

Frankly I don't give a shit what Nich thinks,, I've wondered rather often what world he lives in because it is not the real one.

To go off on a tangent it is rather disturbing to me that we only have one active moderator here these days, that is not good for any forum. I moderate on several, we tend to think three is about right. Ben once had a few too many, me included and he was right to cut it back but a couple more here would provide balance. This forum is not what it once was, we all know that, but Nich having to make all the decisions without recourse to peers is utterly not fair on him.

No, I do not want the job again but there are a number of good folks here who could be mods if they were willing.

 

Nich is defiantly not the only active mod here.  I keep an eye out, but to tell the truth, I try to avoid the bullshit crap talk and don't particularly enjoy wading in on a conversation that I don't believe I have much to contribute to.  Nich and I are in constant communication behind the scenes and discuss actions and bounce off each other constantly.

As for what world Nich lives in, it's the same as yours, only with more reality.

Being a bully to a bully just substantiates the cycle.  If it indeed happened that way, that kid has just had someone who he doesn't respect or care about physically abuse him and then watched that person physically abuse his beloved parent with no ramifications.  He will grow up with that knowledge and probably pass it to his offspring, perpetuating a cycle of "fuck you I can do what I want to whoever I want".  Nice work.

As for modding, if you feel we are neglecting the place, feel free to speak up to the people who pay us to help out here.  Including the huge amount of time and energy that was put into the recent upgrade.  Tell you what - let them know they should halve our salary in recompense.  That sounds about fair.

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8 hours ago, ResidentNeville said:

our desire to use a different label for it when it's a "once off" doesn't change anything and is meaningless.

It's not my desire. It's the desire of all the authorities I can google up, locally and in the western world.
I just agree with these authorities, as they're trained to mentor on it, and it's management.

I'm just disagreeing with a Dictionary.

I'm afraid you're just a troll here and are welcome to leave.
When presented with resounding evidence that it's probably correct to use it the way I suggest, you instead say its meaningless.

off ya trot.

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1 hour ago, eveln said:

Ohhhh right. So your behaviour didn't actually make a bully stop being a bully. So really, you giving that kid a kick up the bum made him scared of you, the big guy in the equation, the bully's bully. 

Only if it's repeated.

 

1 hour ago, Chaos.Lady said:

Being a bully to a bully just substantiates the cycle.

I don't think it reoccurred. It sounds more like a fight; a on sided fight possibly, but a fight none the less.

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9 minutes ago, Master_Scythe said:
1 hour ago, Chaos.Lady said:

Being a bully to a bully just substantiates the cycle.

I don't think it reoccurred. It sounds more like a fight; a on sided fight possibly, but a fight none the less.

And fighting does what?  Again all you are doing is substantiating the cycle of violence.  Where is Gandhi when you need him?

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2 hours ago, Master_Scythe said:

I don't think it reoccurred. It sounds more like a fight; a on sided fight possibly, but a fight none the less.

That time.  Is it bullying or a series of fights if the person picks on different people once or twice, rather than one person serially?

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I have no idea if the kid went on being a bully because neither I nor the school ever saw him again.

I have no idea if there was any love lost between the kid and his father because I never saw him again either.

To me this has been a rather ridiculous argument, I was protecting my daughter, then myself, nothing more,

I said that I attempted to report the matter to the school who were hopeless.

I said all I really did to the kid was a boot shove and a stern warning not to touch my daughter again.

I said the father said not a word to me but went to hit me, on the jaw, the second I opened the flyscreen.

i said my daughter was never bullied at that school ever again and actually what I didn't mention was that bullying dropped to zero at the school overall. The kid had not been the only bully there prior. I was not about to become some vigilante but my actions apparently led the other bullies to realise they could not continue to get away with it.

What I did not say and perhaps should have is that my daughter was 14 at the time, she is 30 in a few weeks time so we are talking at least 15 years ago, a somewhat different world.

However I would probably do the same today in fact in the case of the father I would have no option but to do so.

I never found out the details of what the kid went home and told his dad but I think you can bet he left out the little detail about bullying my daughter being the catalyst for his getting booted.

I honestly do not know where you people who are calling me a bully are coming from. apart from the boot up the kids bum, which produced the result I wanted, my daughter was not bullied again, there was nothing whatsoever that I could have done differently.

I think it is time I just stopped posting in this thread, you who have taken the kids side are not going to change your minds and I am not going to repent on my actions.

Cheers

 

 

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I'm glad you're comfortable admitting that you think 2002 was a different time, and different things would be considered reasonable, but you'd have no hesitation in once more being physical with a kid rather than talking to their parent first.

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33 minutes ago, chrisg said:

I have no idea if the kid went on being a bully because neither I nor the school ever saw him again.

So your actions actually did nothing at all except whatever psychological damage may have occurred.  You have no idea whether negotiation might have done anything.  You have no idea of why he left or whether it had anything at all to do with your actions. It is just as likely that it had absolutely nothing at all to do with you.

The actual fix was him leaving the school and never seeing you or your daughter again in this particular case.  The fight achieved nothing.  The violence achieved nothing except possibly lasting knockon effects for the kids involved.

Which is the usual result of both violence and its ultimate expression, war. 

So, you doing it again and this time it resulting in the kid bringing a knife to school and stabbing your daughter as retaliation for your actions is a possibility too.  I realise that won't happen as your own situation is long in the past, however I would hope that anyone learning from the experience you have so carefully outlined, would also take that into account.

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