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Israel did it.

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11 hours ago, Kothos said:

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-netanyahus-speedy-absolution-for-austrias-neo-nazis-1.5629003

https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2017/08/26/binyamin-netanyahu-is-soft-on-anti-semitism-when-it-suits-him

https://www.smh.com.au/world/benjamin-netanyahus-son-posts-antisemitic-meme-draws-praise-from-neonazis-20170911-gyephx.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/07/13/anti-semitism-doesnt-bother-benjamin-netanyahu-if-it-comes-from-his-political-allies/

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/rights-groups-demand-israel-stop-arming-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-1.6248727

https://www.thedailybeast.com/netanyahus-negotiating-with-neo-fascists-for-a-consensus-view-of-the-holocaust

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/union-israel-european-180716085952930.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/18/world/middleeast/netanyahu-trump-charlottesville.html

 

Is that enough?

 

I don't believe Netanyahu is an anti-Semite, although it's debatable whether he gives a shit about anyone other than himself, but there's a limit to pragmatism and political expediency.  He's entirely given up any sort of moral effort to keep Jews safe, and is aligning himself with whomever happens to be powerful at any given time.  Since the far right crazies are on the ascent now, he's entirely up their arses.

This is the kind of thing that will backfire.  If the far right manages to actually begin running countries, it won't be long before their hatred turns on Israel, and if they don't, he's harmed relationships with centrists or the left.

To recap, Netanyahu sucks up to Trump, who is an anti-Semite, or behaves that way, being entirely soft on neoNazis in the US; he sucks up to Austrian neo-Nazis, Hungarian neo-Nazis, Italian neo-Nazis, Philippine neo-Nazis, Polish neo-Nazis, and so on - many of whom are the leaders in their countries.

 

chrisg you're telling me you've had your head in the sand and have noticed none of this?

 

So I’ve read all your links excel Haaretz and Al Jazeera because I don’t read unhinged hate sites.

 

I’m only going to state that there is some weird unreasonable reason that people hold Israel to account for a lack of moral purity. And Netanyahu cops it the most. Lets just put it into context. Every time he speaks to an arab leader, he speaks to an anti-Semite, neo-Nazi. To establish a Palestinian State, the world wants him to give indigenous jewish lands to a fascist Islamo-kleptocrat for the establishment of another anti-Semitic, proto-Nazi State.

 

If Netanyahu were to speak to only the morally pure among leaders, he’d be talking to no-one.

 

The reality is Israel has always had to talk to anti-semites, and always will. The Mid-Century Zionists even talked to the Nazis (Haavara Agreement).

 

If you expect of Israel and its leader to only talk to the morally pure, while everyone else talks to everyone else - well, there might be a word for that?

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Leo, I'm going to respond to you just this once, and once only, because this deserves not to be hanging in the air.

You're racist.  You can't comment in any discourse without denigrating Arabs and Palestinians even if mention of them is irrelevant.  And you subtly twist words around to argue against strawmen - I think you do this unconsiously because you do it so well.

I didn't say Netanyahu "talks to"anti-Semites, I said he actively courts and sucks up to them.  Massive difference.  But by all means, keep living in your la la land while Israel gets less safe every day because it becomes more evil, every day.  Just like every other country that is becoming more evil is also becoming less safe.

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52 minutes ago, Kothos said:

 

Leo, I'm going to respond to you just this once, and once only, because this deserves not to be hanging in the air.

You're racist.  You can't comment in any discourse without denigrating Arabs and Palestinians even if mention of them is irrelevant.  And you subtly twist words around to argue against strawmen - I think you do this unconsiously because you do it so well.

I didn't say Netanyahu "talks to"anti-Semites, I said he actively courts and sucks up to them.  Massive difference.  But by all means, keep living in your la la land while Israel gets less safe every day because it becomes more evil, every day.  Just like every other country that is becoming more evil is also becoming less safe.

I’m not racist. I’m bigoted.

I’ve zero problem with any Arab other than a significant proportion of Muslim ones. And this is largely because this particular type of Arab represents everything that is repressive and degenerate in the Muslim Arab world. And not just there - it is hard to think of another large grouping that is simultaneously so civilizationally useless (in terms of present-day contribution to STEM, etc) and so civilizationally destructive in terms of cultural progress of their own and of others’ over whom they exercise colonial dominion.

You are a Palestinian Christian as far as I remember. A Palestinian State is the endgame for your people. This one, you won’t survive.

You have my deepest sympathies, whatever you may think of Israel and Netanyahu (most of which is wrong).

Edited by Leonid

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Hmm,

Kothos and I have had these discussions before and in the end it all comes down to two ends of extremes.

I count too many Muslim friends among my close friendships to be deemed anti-Islam but that religion does have its extremist issues, like the often overlooked manner in which Islam led to the long, long atrocious invasions and occupations of India many centuries ago that all but destroyed the Hindu world.

Contrariwise I have a great deal of sympathy for marginalised Palestinians, the creation of Israel overlooked that entire demographic. But I do take note that many Arabs of the Islamic faith live happily in Israel, no Jews or rather Israelis that I'm aware of are resident in the Palestinian Territories.

If Israel is descending into evil one could hardly blame them, they have been under assault from day one and not only survived but been triumphant but it has unarguably brutalised many of them.

The olive branch has been extended many times, unfortunately obstructed by fundamentalist Jews like the settlers and the increasingly barely tolerated Hassidics, they need to get with the 20th Century from whatever the hell century they are in, then work on the 21st...

I don't see Netanyahu as doing anything but moving the situation to the next level of discussion, his problem is that his persona is that of an arrogant, U.S. educated Sabra, but if he can push the discussion forwards then pass the mantle to a more moderate person then that is progress, not that it might be seen that way by a lot of Palestinians.

There has to be give and little take on both sides and the mood of both sides makes that very difficult to imagine.

Cheers

 

 

 

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@chrisg nobody overlooked the Arabs.

1922, 1937 and 1948 offers were all knocked back.

Then in ‘48 they asked to be annexed by Jordan.

20 years later with KGB help they rebrand as Palestinians and refuse to talk to anyone formally for a further 20 years in compliance with Khartoum’s resolution of the Arab League.

They fucked Oslo (so did Israel), got bitch slapped by everyone, including the Arabs for refusing the offer of 2000.

In 2005 Israel vacated Gaza so the Pals could show how they governed. They promptly murdered each other for a few months and then turned Gaza into a playground for absolute rectums of humanity.

Then in 2008 Olmert offered ‘49 borders plus a few land swaps. That got rejected.

 

 

There's no other group on Earth that have been offered statehood that many times.

Edited by Leonid
Apostrophes are there to piss off people. No other reason for their existence exists.

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Just now, chrisg said:

All history Leo, now is what matters.

Cheers

All history was “now” once.

When push comes to shove, Pals are Arabs. Looking at it now and historically - what do Muslim Arabs do when there isn’t a genocidal kleptocrat clearly in charge and ready to drop sarin on uppity villagers?

So why even bother to negotiate a state the Arabs will refuse anyway? Why give Arabs political freedom to murder each other over who is the better follower of an illiterate 7th Century goat-herding wandering rapist. Why is it in anyone’s interest to undermine an imperfect democracy which has given so much to the world, to create a 22nd islamic Arab state - were the other 21 such stunning successes that we want to repeat them?

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Repeating history is indeed akin to  repeating the same mistake and  expecting a different outcome...

i do think Netanyahu recognises that and is acting upon it.

Cheers

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1 minute ago, chrisg said:

Repeating history is indeed akin to  repeating the same mistake and  expecting a different outcome...

i do think Netanyahu recognises that and is acting upon it.

Cheers

Exactly. Palestinians are physically incapable of signing a peace accord because their only superpower is being able to grab any opportunity to miss an opportunity.

 

What I find disingenuous is Kothos is claiming Netanyahu is sucking up to anti-Semites.

 

I mean fair call - Netanyahu talks to and sucks up to plenty of anti-semites because Israel doesn't have the luxury of moral purity. But at the same time, he's actively talking less to Abbas and the rest of the Pal leadership - than other Israeli premiers. And given Abbas authored a book denying the Holocaust, surely @Kothos is willing to acknowledge that Netanyahu is to be commended on not sucking up to this particular anti-semitic fascist?

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Meh, Leo has admitted he's (coloquially) racist or bigoted or whatever similar term - and that after calling *me* racist because that's the level of argument he can muster.  I'm done.

To be clear, *my people* are humanity, and Palestinian Christians come in every flavour, including Zionists who support Israel because they think they can seperate themselves from Muslims, or they don't like Muslims or whatever (and it hasn't worked, Israel continues to oppress Christians just as much as Muslims).  I don't need any sympathy, history eventually reaches points of justice, one way or another.  I've been saying for a two decades that when Israel in its current form is destroyed, it will be Israel that does it.  Peace would be a better way, which is sad that Israelis are wilfully choosing violence, but I don't choose other people's destinies.

 

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30 minutes ago, Kothos said:

history eventually reaches points of justice, one way or another. 

Well we waited 1300 years to get our land back from the Arab invaders... so I guess you’re right there, in one instance 🙂

But uh AFAIK you’re wrong re points of justice. Plenty of peoples no longer exist and some will never get what they want.

 

Regarding the polemic of Israel destroying itself... to an extent it can be true - two Jews = 17 opinions and democracy in Israel is so strong that the only demographic not adequately represented by a micro-party are midget Japanese Jewish lesbians with a bung leg and an eye patch.

But... the Arabs and other anti-semites have done us Jews a favour - they keep reminding us why we need a safe harbour. Nothing unifies Israel like survival.

 

And you will need sympathy whether you like/need it or not. Palestinian Statehood ends Christianity and Christians in Palestine where they’ve lived from times before the Arab invasion. Plenty of people never saw the writing on the wall: Integrationist Jews who were anti-Zionist burned in Hitler’s ovens - every Zionist knew what was going to happen.

I know what’s going to happen to Palestinian Christians. The lessons of history re Nazism are striking in parallel. Hitler channeled German rawness and anger at their loss at the Jews.

What happens when Palestine emerges? The Arab clan warlords who’ve ruled it for decades hampered any development. No natural resources. No STEM. Nothing to export. Who’s going to cop the blame from the next Islamist dictator when the Jews aren’t around to be the convenient bogeymen? Doesn’t help that as a group, Palestinian Christians are on average wealthier....

I’m really sorry @Kothos - I truly am.

My perfect world involves an ethnic expulsion of Palestinian Sunnis to Lebanon and Lebanese Christians settling in a Palestinian-Israeli confederation - because I think that could actually work - but it’s not a plan anyone can actually execute.

 

As for being bigoted... are you not one? Do you not reject bad ideas such as say rejecting someone’s right to lope parts of the vagina off a girl because their Muslim Faith says that’s the right thing to do?

Being bigoted and discriminatory is (when channeled correctly) a good thing. It means you actually have a functioning brain.

 

I’m extremely bigoted against all manifestations of Arab Islamosupremacism. If that presents a problem for you, you and I need to inhabit different planets.

Edited by Leonid

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To be clear again, I'm not interested in Palestinian statehood (and I disagree with your "assumptions" anyway).  I'm merely looking forward to a state that treats all its members equally, which means it won't be a Jewish state either.  The name of that state is irrelevant.  So no, I don't need any sympathy - yo do, because the evil Israeli state you support so much won't last.  It might still be called Israel down the track, but you won't be supporting it apparently, when/if it becomes egalitarian.  Doesn't seem to be in your nature.

Let's try that ignore function now...

 

Ha, it works.  That's awesome.

Now I don't have to see bullshit racist "arguments" based entirely on strawmen.  Nice.

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Ah you’re a one-stater looking for “justice” lol.

 

Do the maths chump. Homophobia of the religious “deserve to die” variety runs at 30% in Israel. It runs at 95% in the Palestinian Territories.

 

Populations are roughly equal. Smash them together and 2-10% of the combined 14m population lose (at least) all their rights or (more likely) their heads.

 

A one state equal-rights solution is a non-starter because it won’t be a state and it won’t have equal rights. It’s the equivalent of betting against the sun rising tomorrow.

 

As I said, you have my deepest sympathies. Your naivety about ME realities and the medieval state of Arab islamism is adorable.

Oh - and every Arab has been saying Israel won’t last - they’ve been saying that for 70 years.

 

I’ll put good money on Israel lasting a much longer time as a Jewish State for all its citizens - than the Arab states, for none of their citizens.

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