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SceptreCore

Are we ready for war?

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A very interesting article from the ABC by Stan Grant: "We haven't seen the End of History. We are witnessing its bloody return"

The story posits that we are very likely looking at an inevitable confrontation very soon between the emergent superpower and the incumbent, with our region being the 'tinderbox' that could be the starting place.

China has continued to build its military strength, strike force and budget second only to the United States. It is developing advanced fighter jets, stealth attack submarines and anti-ship ballistic missiles.It is building what Beijing calls its "undersea Great Wall" — and is developing a new bomber aircraft that will greatly expand China's long-range strike capacity. Senior analyst with the Australian Strategic Policy Institute Malcolm Davis says these advances "make it more difficult for US forces to intervene in a future crisis in East Asia".

Davis warns that China could "leapfrog US capabilities" and that "could begin to tip the local military advantage in Beijing's direction". America recognises the threat. Last year the US Defence Department updated its national defence strategy nominating China and Russia as the largest threats to US interests. As the strategy stated: "It is increasingly clear that China and Russia want to shape a world consistent with their authoritarian model."

...

The Asia-Pacific is a tinderbox of old enmities, expanding militaries, disputed territories, unfinished conflict and nuclear weapons. A spark in the South China Sea could set fire to the region: China on one side, the US on the other, with the rest of the world forced into choosing sides. The script for this was written by Thucydides in 400 BC, when Athens went to war with Sparta. Today military strategists warn of the Thucydides Trap: when a rising power meets a waning power and go to battle for supremacy.

Founding dean of the Harvard University Kennedy School, Graham Allison, fears the world is lurching towards conflict unseen since World War II. He puts his case in a new book, Destined for War: Can America and China escape Thucydides's Trap? "It was the rise of Athens and the fear this instilled in Sparta that made war inevitable," he writes. "As far ahead as the eye can see, the defining question about global order is whether China and the US can escape Thucydides's trap. Most contests that fit this pattern have ended badly," Professor Allison writes. On the current trajectory, Professor Allison says, war is, "not just possible, but much more likely than currently recognised".

2019 does not look like the "end of history".

While Francis Fukuyama trumpeted the defeat of authoritarianism, authoritarianism has returned with a vengeance. More than a decade ago, historian Azar Gat, writing in the journal Foreign Affairs, identified China's brand of authoritarian capitalism as the greatest challenge to the global liberal order. "As China rapidly narrows the economic gap with the developed world, the possibility looms that it will become a true authoritarian superpower," he wrote

I haven't yet mentioned Belt and Road, China's massive infrastructure and investment project that expands Beijing's reach into Central Asia and Europe: it has been called a new Chinese global order or a 21st-century Chinese colonialism. China is rapidly eclipsing the rest of the world in developments in artificial intelligence, quantum physics and robotics.

Historian Niall Ferguson points out that in 1980, China accounted for 2 percent of the world economy, now it is nearly 20 percent — more than the US and Canada combined. As America has been bogged down by war and financial collapse, the Chinese Communist Party claims it has a better model. History did not end in 1989, it shifted continents.

 

So I ask the question; Are we ready for war? Not as a nation, but as individuals.

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39 minutes ago, SceptreCore said:

 Are we ready for war? Not as a nation, but as individuals.

No. I'm not.

This is why I have fallen inlove with Bilbo's house ... except I need lots more money in order to give it serious cammo and protection against bombing parties etc.

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Posted (edited)

Probably 5 years ago, I would have said it could not happen even though the power of the US/Europe was in decline and China was clearly growing and confident. Nationalism was somewhat fringe and it seemed that communication and information globalisation had largely overcome ideology.

I know the pendulum swings and there are cycles of left vs right, but the long term trend has been progressive for generations (slavery, racism, sexism, sexuality, religion etc, are all better in most parts of the world now than they were 100 years ago).

But something has happened in the last 5 years, that has allowed ideology to ignore logic and globally available information on both sides. evidence can be dismissed as fake news, and communities seem polarised. In 2010 I could not have expected a right wing government in any western country to simply state hate as fact - instead they needed to discuss, convince, manipulate and deceive in order to allow their populace to support some actions. now those actions are just taken and people told everybody supports this, the objections are fake.

Consider 2001-2003 and the political effort expended for going into Iraq for the WMDs. Now considered by most as dodgy intel, but the diplomatic efforts though UN etc, to justify that action took a long time, built on previous conflict that the US considered unresolved from the 90s. During the same decade, 2001-2010 Australia's Immigration policy -  Only 5 years after Pauline Hanson was ridiculed for her maiden speech,, and her position though inconceivable to the majority, 2001-2010 demonstrated a transition to make her position basically government policy and the majority accepted it, it flows one way, then ebs back with objections from others.

But in 2019, you don't worry about dragging public opinion along for the ride, you have your team, and on ideological grounds (even if you're not sure what the foundations of that ideology are) you yell something out, and declare everything that conflicts with it false.... Russia didn't have anything to do with US elections! Everyone in the UK wants to stay in the EU! Everyone wants drug dealers in the Philippines shot! Only a few old christian fogies are holding us back from gay marriage!

The fuckers will probably drag us all to war if it means they can make a buck or stay in power - AND these days they won't even give us the courtesy of calling it rain when they piss on our graves.

But I plan to be optimistic, because I'd rather view the world through a positive attitude, and make my bit of it nicer thanks ?

Edited by stadl
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I expect another war will happen within my lifetime, and it will likely involve enough countries to be titled WWIII. 

What I'm not sure of is who will start it and who the major players will be. I don't think China would start the war. However, they will defend what they have. 

I could see the US or USSR start a war either between each other or as allies. Trump because he's a loose cannon, and Putin because he's actually a formidable adversary. 

I can't see Kim Jong Un starting a war, even though I'm sure he'd like to. They have the military numbers, but I don't think they have the tech to get far. That is, unless Indonesia or China sides with them, then  we'd be in trouble.

I think that when oil supplies get low (maybe in my lifetime), then the Saudis will try to take over the world with all the arms we've sold them. 

 

The only thing I am pretty certain of, is that human nature will continue to prove humanity to be a greedy, power driven  race and war is inevitable. We suck.

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4 minutes ago, SacrificialNewt said:

I expect another war will happen within my lifetime, and it will likely involve enough countries to be titled WWIII.

Y'know, both Gulf Wars involved almost everyone, but neither got the title.  I think rather than just who was pulling triggers, we need to take account of who's doing the dying.

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47 minutes ago, stadl said:

Probably 5 years ago, I would have said it could not happen even though the power of the US/Europe was in decline and China was clearly growing and confident. Nationalism was somewhat fringe and it seemed that communication and information globalisation had largely overcome ideology.

I know the pendulum swings and there are cycles of left vs right, but the long term trend has been progressive for generations (slavery, racism, sexism, sexuality, religion etc, are all better in most parts of the world now than they were 100 years ago).

But something has happened in the last 5 years, that has allowed ideology to ignore logic and globally available information on both sides. evidence can be dismissed as fake news, and communities seem polarised. In 2010 I could not have expected a right wing government in any western country to simply state hate as fact - instead they needed to discuss, convince, manipulate and deceive in order to allow their populace to support some actions. now those actions are just taken and people told everybody supports this, the objections are fake.

Consider 2001-2003 and the political effort expended for going into Iraq for the WMDs. Now considered by most as dodgy intel, but the diplomatic efforts though UN etc, to justify that action took a long time, built on previous conflict that the US considered unresolved from the 90s. During the same decade, 2001-2010 Australia's Immigration policy -  Only 5 years after Pauline Hanson was ridiculed for her maiden speech,, and her position though inconceivable to the majority, 2001-2010 demonstrated a transition to make her position basically government policy and the majority accepted it, it flows one way, then ebs back with objections from others.

But in 2019, you don't worry about dragging public opinion along for the ride, you have your team, and on ideological grounds (even if you're not sure what the foundations of that ideology are) you yell something out, and declare everything that conflicts with it false.... Russia didn't have anything to do with US elections! Everyone in the UK wants to stay in the EU! Everyone wants drug dealers in the Philippines shot! Only a few old christian fogies are holding us back from gay marriage!

The fuckers will probably drag us all to war if it means they can make a buck or stay in power - AND these days they won't even give us the courtesy of calling it rain when they piss on our graves.

But I plan to be optimistic, because I'd rather view the world through a positive attitude, and make my bit of it nicer thanks ?

Ideology is now policy. Opinion is fact. Crime and wrongdoing is justified by pointing the finger and comparing it to other crimes and wrongdoing. Emmanuel Macron called these the "old demons" of nationalism rising again. And we see it in the West as well as the East.

China and Russia have always been nationalistic, but now they are brazenly unchecked in their authoritarian agenda, increasing their influence and taking what they want and going unchallenged. The West rises towards nationalism and this only fuels the fire of conflict. China and Russia are now expanding their military influence throughout Oceania and the world. Their alliance together is a fragile one at best though, but still the West's influence is shrinking rapidly. Like the article said it's going to come to head between the one emerging the the one declining. 

We are in for a rough time..

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I think Emmanuel Macron will prove to be a big non-event, unless someone manages to cut his head orff that is . Then he'll go down in history . Literally.

Surely  we've all got to a point of thinking that World Wars on a scale of " I and II" are stupid now, taking into account the costs of destruction that could be given ?  The smaller localised wars that really have never stopped, are keeping most things in check, whilst supplying
revenue to others ... isn't that the way the world turns today ?

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I don't have any expectations of the man himself, only his words.

I think we are seeing the dividing lines of a fractured world again that could start to turn on itself again for sure, and many experts agree.

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Hmm,

Am I prepared as an individual ?

Perhaps more so than some but not as much as I might prefer to be. I'm not sure that anyone can be when if there is a forthcoming war it is unlikely to be like any war ever seen before but I rather doubt that it will ever eventuate.

It is rather pointless to worry about a nuclear spasm, the principle of MAD still applies (Mutually Assured Destruction) which is why all the nasty nuclear toys are in the end nothing more than ridiculous dick waving unless some nutter decides to commit suicide in a fit of spite.

The only player that might qualify in that regard is the fat boy in NK but I doubt even he is that stupid, both he and his country would be obliterated in a flash and the retaliation could as easily come from China or Russia as from the U.S. The two communist nations of note are as concerned about that fat slob as are the more capitalistic nations that greatly outweigh even the combined nuclear throw weight of Russia and China and they have far more mature dispersed retaliatory capabilities than the other ideology is ever likely to achieve.

In real terms neither Russia nor China is communist in the sense that Marx's pathetic manifesto that revolves around humans as insects rather than thinking mammals envisioned. There are now far too many wealthy persons in both nations who have acquired their wealth through capitalist methods - including corruption, for them to ever allow their nominal leaders to attempt to impose their ideology (which they probably do not even believe themselves) through war.

To look at the three primary nutters with their fingers on hypothetical nuclear buttons is to realise that they actually do not have the ability to use their toys.

Trump is either deranged or senile or both but fundamentally he is not so stupid, and far too self-centred to start something that he knows will see him reduced to a puff of smoke. Even were he to try. The U.S. and the U.K and France have very deep internal checks and balances to obstruct nuclear escalation by their nominal leaders.

Putin is in somewhat of a similar situation. The unfortunately too brief period of Glasnost, in the sense of transparency, allowed the exposure of those checks and balances by both sides. Somewhat surprisingly Russia was not found to be too bad in that regard but they improved by looking closer at how the U.S. and especially the U.K. keeps the nuclear genie in the bottle. Putin does not have the absolute control that he purports to have, cooler heads in the Russian military would head him off and if they did not the newly wealthy of Russia would quite possibly ferment another Russian revolution and toss his head over the walls of the Kremlin.

Xi Jinping is even more wary of unsettling his massive population. China may be rather suddenly a wealthy nation but that wealth is by no means equally distributed and the massive Chinese peasantry are perfectly capable of rising up and overthrowing him. That is, in part, the reason for endeavors like the Silk Road, to facilitate a more even distribution of wealth. It may well carry along with it some aspects of Chinese ideology but that is not Communism in any pure form anyway and with extreme Capitalism being just as bad as extreme Communism it is quite possible that as the ideologies mingle they will moderate each other.

It bemuses me that there is concern about the Silk Road. History has repeatedly shown that when a nation has an export capability it will establish trade routes. Land transport of goods into target markets is a cost effective method over time for China to become more efficient at exporting.

I could go on for pages discussing all the bogeymen that the media construct out of whole cloth and throw in our faces to incite fear that makes them money but I'd hope my message is clear.

Referring to the articles of late that began this thread I'd suggest they have been composed more as a message saying "don't go down this road" than as predictions.

Cheers

 

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22 hours ago, SceptreCore said:

So I ask the question; Are we ready for war? Not as a nation, but as individuals.

Of course not.

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52 minutes ago, scruffy1 said:

ready as i'll ever be

I was tempted to say the same thing, but the more I thought about it the more I realised that it's so far away from the truth its essentially false.

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America can't handle serious "police actions" on three fronts, but can see King Crackpot (sorry, Trump) retaliating badly to some sort of slap inna face:

 - Kimmy doing another missile test that goes catastrophically wrong, drops hardware onto Japan or some "American " soil and King Crackpot pushing someone to push some buttons.

 - The Chinese will play chicken with American hardware (again!), someone won't duck/twitch the steering wheel in time, some American hardware/lives will be lost so King Crackpot will push someone to push some buttons. That will get ugly either in a loud destructive manner or he'll chuck a serious tantrum and really make things interesting.

 - Russia mightn't be running a stick along Trump's fence tooooo hard at the moment (think they're tapping on it though) but they've been sabre-rattling in Europe enough to make King Crackpot think about pushing someone to get ready to push a button perhaps.

 

And both China 'n Russia "demonstrating" they've supposedly got first tactical and possibly even strategic strike capability with their new hypersonic toys (real or bogus), reckon King Crackpot's getting ready to chuck a serious tantrum  at the drop of a hat and take things too far.

Problem is it'll only take one Oops at the moment for him to go apeshit further than he already has in his own turf, and there'll be some hardware of some description flung about "somewhere".

Could be wrong but his ego and the "America? Fuck Yeah!" redneck mentality that got him voted in in the first place won't let him stand and take a "Ooops,. Sorry About That - My Bad" and/or some sort of serious "Cop This, You Capatilist Dog - What Are You Going To Do About?" from anyone.

And with him in charge gone are the days of the Septics able to play brinksmanship a la Cuban Missile Crisis - he'll willingly step, jump or even push someone else over any serious line drawn in the sand.

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Posted (edited)

the next world war is already well under way electronically

why fuck up perfectly good contryside with radiation when you can buy it with financial manipulation ?  war is messy, money has more power than nukes

 

in case you haven't noticed, the chinese have already taken darwin as a strategic position, and half of newcastle

 

meantime, america is essentially bankrupt but it doesn't notice, because printing money is easy in the digital age

 

 

like i said, i'm as ready as i'll ever be - if  the shit does really hit the fan, preparation will be rather inadequate whatever you reckon needs doing

 

 

 

Edited by scruffy1
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, merlin13 said:

America can't handle serious "police actions" on three fronts, but can see King Crackpot (sorry, Trump) retaliating badly to some sort of slap inna face:

 - Kimmy doing another missile test that goes catastrophically wrong, drops hardware onto Japan or some "American " soil and King Crackpot pushing someone to push some buttons.

 - The Chinese will play chicken with American hardware (again!), someone won't duck/twitch the steering wheel in time, some American hardware/lives will be lost so King Crackpot will push someone to push some buttons. That will get ugly either in a loud destructive manner or he'll chuck a serious tantrum and really make things interesting.

 - Russia mightn't be running a stick along Trump's fence tooooo hard at the moment (think they're tapping on it though) but they've been sabre-rattling in Europe enough to make King Crackpot think about pushing someone to get ready to push a button perhaps.

 

And both China 'n Russia "demonstrating" they've supposedly got first tactical and possibly even strategic strike capability with their new hypersonic toys (real or bogus), reckon King Crackpot's getting ready to chuck a serious tantrum  at the drop of a hat and take things too far.

Problem is it'll only take one Oops at the moment for him to go apeshit further than he already has in his own turf, and there'll be some hardware of some description flung about "somewhere".

Could be wrong but his ego and the "America? Fuck Yeah!" redneck mentality that got him voted in in the first place won't let him stand and take a "Ooops,. Sorry About That - My Bad" and/or some sort of serious "Cop This, You Capatilist Dog - What Are You Going To Do About?" from anyone.

And with him in charge gone are the days of the Septics able to play brinksmanship a la Cuban Missile Crisis - he'll willingly step, jump or even push someone else over any serious line drawn in the sand.

Russia is doing quite well at disarming their enemies politically. Divide and conquer. You can see that pressure is coming upon Europe to break up; That gets rid of one. A crippled America by a compromised election. Backing the Syrian tyranny. Occupying Crimea. Building a barracks in on the Kuril Islands to try and force Japan out of its western alliance. Expanding their own military influence throughout the asia-pacific region.

Russia and China are on the move and the West isn't going to let things slip out of their hands without a fight.

3 hours ago, robzy said:

I was tempted to say the same thing, but the more I thought about it the more I realised that it's so far away from the truth its essentially false.

Hahaha... it was more of a rhetorical question that didn't need to be directly answered. ? 

Edited by SceptreCore

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Heh.

 

The NK missiles have been getting better or more reliable, but one could certainly fail again somewhere over Japan - thing is by the time they cross the Japanese coastline they are already moving at such a speed that even if they did fail at that time they would not impact anywhere on Japan. In real terms and by their prior record they are by then in their most reliable phase, other earlier tests were high lobs, when they worked, that could not reach Japan in any event. So, whilst they are reckless, and provocative the chances of their striking Japan are rather remote.

The Chinese playing chicken with U.S. recon aircraft stopped after one collision 17 or so years ago. The U.S P-3s and P-8s still fly regular recon in international air but are much more circumspectly shadowed.

Europe is so used to provocation from Russia going back decades with a short pause that they barely notice, or if they do simply go up a Defon level or so and advertise the fact whilst increasing patrols. Russia pretty quickly gets the message - NATO could give them a very comprehensive blood nose especially since numerous former Warsaw Pact nations are now in the NATO fold. The thing that amuses me there the most is that all the ballyhoo over new fighters and the hypersonic missiles is pretty much that, rubbish, they do not even have a single squadron strength of the new fighters and the hypersonics are prototype and propaganda  only at this stage.

If anyone thinks the U.S. does not have a similar capability but is playing coy just the way they do with most deep black developments such as the SR-71 and F-117 then they don't know the way the U'S. plays versus the Russian chest beating.  The now long completed Scramjet testing and the long term orbital X-37B give a couple of hints but no good poker player shows his hand too soon. I suspect Putin is very much overplaying his.

Washington at the moment is the inverse of how it was during the Cuban crisis. Then the Kennedy's were the steady hands then and morons like LeMay wanted to go to war. Now we have a moron in so-called command but a lot of cooler military heads, and State, keeping him under control, just wish they'd take his 'phone away to deny him his twit addiction.

 

Cheers

 

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1 hour ago, chrisg said:

by the time they cross the Japanese coastline they are already moving at such a speed that even if they did fail at that time they would not impact anywhere on Japan

Unless it 'malfunctions' by way of detonating.  "Oops!  So sorry!  We not mean to EMP half your country.  Oh, all your yen, financial details, and technology is useless or has vanished?  Gosh, how unfortunate!"

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3 hours ago, SceptreCore said:
6 hours ago, robzy said:

I was tempted to say the same thing, but the more I thought about it the more I realised that it's so far away from the truth its essentially false.

Hahaha... it was more of a rhetorical question that didn't need to be directly answered. ? 

What could or would the Gov. give out to all the people ? gas masks again ? shovels ? towels ?  clean hankies ( thinking of the Spanish flu )

Your simple rhetorical question is one that should be front and centre on every war room wall ... like those stitched cloths that say things like " Home is Where The heart is "

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3 hours ago, chrisg said:

The Chinese playing chicken with U.S. recon aircraft stopped after one collision 17 or so years ago. The U.S P-3s and P-8s still fly regular recon in international air but are much more circumspectly shadowed.

Europe is so used to provocation from Russia going back decades with a short pause that they barely notice, or if they do simply go up a Defon level or so and advertise the fact whilst increasing patrols. Russia pretty quickly gets the message - NATO could give them a very comprehensive blood nose especially since numerous former Warsaw Pact nations are now in the NATO fold. The thing that amuses me there the most is that all the ballyhoo over new fighters and the hypersonic missiles is pretty much that, rubbish, they do not even have a single squadron strength of the new fighters and the hypersonics are prototype and propaganda  only at this stage.

If anyone thinks the U.S. does not have a similar capability but is playing coy just the way they do with most deep black developments such as the SR-71 and F-117 then they don't know the way the U'S. plays versus the Russian chest beating.  The now long completed Scramjet testing and the long term orbital X-37B give a couple of hints but no good poker player shows his hand too soon. I suspect Putin is very much overplaying his.

Washington at the moment is the inverse of how it was during the Cuban crisis. Then the Kennedy's were the steady hands then and morons like LeMay wanted to go to war. Now we have a moron in so-called command but a lot of cooler military heads, and State, keeping him under control, just wish they'd take his 'phone away to deny him his twit addiction.

Cheers

Yes but it's not aircraft anymore... it's guided missile destroyers in the South China Sea.

There is no doubt that the US are the best at war. They have the technology and the man power. They own space. But China is quickly increasing their military strength and technology, and they are looking to counter the US satellite network.

China's economy is the world hub. The highest GDP (PPP) in the world, and now they are starting to show that they can stand up to the US. China will surpass the US, and eventually the US is going to have to test Thucydides Trap

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41 minutes ago, eveln said:

Your simple rhetorical question is one that should be front and centre on every war room wall ... like those stitched cloths that say things like " Home is Where The heart is "

oh no... that would be a disaster. You don't want a civilian population ready for war... that would be chaos.

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It's hard to say how a war could actually start. Lets imagine the main players: US, Russia, China.

Russia is extremely nationalistic but dirt poor. China is obsessed with money and trade. The US is powerful but reliant on trade with China.

  • Russia can't sustain a war against a significant enemy. Ukrainians and Syrian donkey-molesters don't count.
  • China would not go to war against their customers as China cares deeply about the national interest of "getting rich".
  • USA would just generically not start a World War, especially under this president (he's the first President since Jimmy Carter to neither start a new war, nor expand one)

So then we're looking at most at a proxy war - ie Vietnam. That could happen, but nukes wouldn't start flying in one of those... unless the world has badly miscalculated Iran's and DPRK's capabilities right now.

As far as I'm concerned, there's only one potential war that may threaten nuclear weapons - India and Pakistan are overdue for another conflict and Modi is itching for an end to the world's greatest producer of rectums - Pakistan.

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10 hours ago, scruffy1 said:

the next world war is already well under way electronically

why fuck up perfectly good contryside with radiation when you can buy it with financial manipulation ?  war is messy, money has more power than nukes

 

in case you haven't noticed, the chinese have already taken darwin as a strategic position, and half of newcastle

 

or look at Zimbabwe,  virtually given a whole country without paying a cent

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8 hours ago, SceptreCore said:
8 hours ago, eveln said:

Your simple rhetorical question is one that should be front and centre on every war room wall ... like those stitched cloths that say things like " Home is Where The heart is "

oh no... that would be a disaster. You don't want a civilian population ready for war... that would be chaos.

Ahh. No. - The only way to make civilians any where near ready for war is to conscript them in entirety. - My point of displaying your question on a War room wall was in order to keep the knowledge, front and centre, that the only people that might wish to make war were those
in the War room.

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Heh,

I was going to mention India/Pakistan, I agree with Leo, one place that there could be some nuclear engagement, would be rather short though, Pakistan would not have a hope in hell. The problem of course is that no nuclear exchange can be called regional the fallout goes global or at least hemispherical.

To reply to Cybes, none of the NK missiles have been armed and there is no evidence that their missile/nuclear weapon combination is feasible. In other words the nukes have been test detonations, nothing says they have been able to produce a weapon that is compact enough to mount on a missile. Nor is their any conclusive evidence that they have a fusion weapon although they claim to have detonated one the atmospheric evidence disagrees. Frankly a bright physics student with the right resources could produce a fission bomb these days, very crude weapon but also bloody heavy as evidenced by the only ones thus far dropped in anger, nothing smaller than a B-29 could have carried them. Fusion weapons are a completely different order of complexity.

SC, there have been U.S. Navy assets including guided missile destroyers in and around the South China sea for decades. The U.S. Navy has been patrolling around Japan since the end of WWII with a large presence on mainland Japan and a carrier group and one or two nuclear subs, most commonly attack boats but a boomer is never far away. Situation normal in other words apart from China creating artificial islands.

I do find those islands somewhat provocative even though apart from being used as forward air bases they are pretty much useless chunks of enhanced rock.

However if I were China with their rather sudden dramatic rise in wealth I'd be looking at my border security as well.

I also agree with Leo about Russia being dirt poor, Putin has aspects of Lenin and other leaders before him, spending the country into bankruptcy whilst locking up the very scientists who have worked on them. He's not a moron but he doesn't seem to recognise history repeating itself.

Cheers

 

 

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