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Kimmo

AOC

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It'd be madness anyway.  20 years of back and forth bullshit to decide whether or not to build a footpath.

Edited by Rybags

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5 hours ago, Rybags said:

The problem I see with government by public participation - it'd be the loudest, squeaky wheel that gets the grease.

We'd have people with too much time on their hands doing all of the "public participation" and as a result have them running the joint, ie the elderly, and those too lazy to get a job.

 

Yeah, you're right - there's no way an open and transparent system could be less corrupt than an exclusive and opaque one. 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/jan/02/how-a-flawed-freedom-of-information-regime-keeps-australians-in-the-dark

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6 hours ago, Kimmo said:

This is widely regarded as some kind of sacred article of faith, while relatively little concern comes from the same quarters regarding gaping chasms in the safety net. 

Meanwhile, productivity keeps rising, threatening to put most of the first world out of a job (particularly if bullshit makework jobs of zero intrinsic value went away). So I'm puzzled as to the pressing need for us all to be so industrious, especially since most of the things we do are actually a pretty bad idea, from a holistic perspective. 

 

6 hours ago, Leonid said:

That's the thing flip. You don't realise it but all the things you think are socialist or "left" don't progress society as much as you think they do. And on the other side, things that are libertarian or right don't retard social progress as much as you think they do.

But just think about it. We want our doctors paid well, working in good conditions, with good medicines and on the same page we want to receive good care, responsible diagnoses and doctors who haven't worked 18h before coming to see us. You can't do these things in a socialist welfare state. You can't buy the medicines you need, pay the doctors what they need, buy the latest machinery... 

The reality is the world is a bigger place than ideology. Someone has to shovel shit too. And someone has to specialise, literally specialise in excrement to develop policies, mechanisms and effective methods to remove the stuff that comes out of your arse and move it away. It's a real downer revolutionaries never think of.

 

Hence why I say you need to be rewarded 1. For making an effort. Those businesses that have made a product people want get to make profits. If you go through medical school to become a doctor you get paid for your effort. The more difficult to implement is part 2. You don't get rewarded for these things if they come at the expense of everyone else. This why it's different from what we have now in straight capitalism. If you make a product that is deliberately addictive, is bad for the environment or breaks down social interactions by either its product or the conditions of workers you have to pay into a social fund (or something similar) for that. Basically make being an arse hole less attractive. I think keeping parts of capitalism is important but not keeping it unchecked. 

As for keeping society progressing, Leonid, society can in some ways progress under free capitalism but you need protection for those that straight capitalism can ignore. You need to have a system that works, even in a compromised way, for all people. Not just those that fit the popular system. And that isn't suggesting free rides but finding ways to make people useful and preserving their humanity. 

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Like the current system, which is far from straight capitalism (and thank the heavens it is so)?

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Don’t get me wrong. I know there are current problems. 

 

The difference is that Kimmo’s solution is akin to diving of a skyscraper and using the opportunity of time before *splat* to stab yourself and drink poison to make absolutely positively sure.

 

You want better education? There’s ways to do that. Better health care? Ways to do that too. More accountable capitalism? Why not... the Nordics do it with economies as free as ours.

 

None of these solutions require “anarchic participatory democracy” (which by the way is going into the same storage location for funny new age bullshit in my brain as the question “did you just assume my gender”?). You don’t need a revolution.

Edited by Leonid
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Oh I know we have a form of that now but like you say there are problems and most people see that there are but from different perspectives. I'm just saying that in a world where some people want to throw away the other side because they believe that is what is bringing everything down, we need to try and keep what works from both sides and fix what doesn't on both sides. And maybe stop taking sides....

But as I noted in another post. You also need people advocating for crazy ideas and being passionate at both ends because the middle isn't generally passionate enough to try and get change without it going too far one way or the other first.

 

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This is pretty far off topic... AOC? Not crazy. 

Was FDR crazy? 

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10 minutes ago, Kimmo said:

This is pretty far off topic...

You'd expect better from people who bemoan the laziness of modern social media users, right?

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20 minutes ago, Kimmo said:

This is pretty far off topic... AOC? Not crazy. 

Was FDR crazy? 

AOC is on record stating she wants a socialism like the Nordics.

Funnily enough the Nordics aren’t socialist. They’re a form of welfare capitalism. IE extremely free economies with extremely generous welfare systems and extremely productive workers operating in a culture of shaming the unemployed.

AOC never speaks about lowering corporate tax rates like the Nordics. Or of reducing government and reducing red tape. She only speaks of the spend side of the equation.

 

But you’re right. That’s not crazy. That’s youthful exuberance and lack of experience.

 

Give her some time to get acquainted with the fact that the revolution still requires someone to clean excrement from sewers. She’ll disappoint you just like all the others have done or will do.

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17 minutes ago, Leonid said:

Give her some time to get acquainted with the fact that the revolution still requires someone to clean excrement from sewers. She’ll disappoint you just like all the others have done or will do.

Yeah, I do wonder how she'll feel about these things in a few years time. I think game of thrones did quite a good portrayal of where the best idealistic intentions find you with Daenerys Targaryen. 

I think that most governments need to focus less on what the tax rate is and more on how to get companies to pay it. Lower tax rates but with less loopholes would solve a lot of budget/revenue issues. 

That said there is a lot to like about her ambition and where she wants to take things. Hopefully she'll find her way and shake things up for the better. 

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28 minutes ago, fliptopia said:

Hopefully she'll find her way and shake things up for the better. 

She's already started. 

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11 hours ago, Kimmo said:

But try to imagine a world where the business of government wasn't left up to unaccountable turkeys in suits, but a matter of public participation

I was under the impression that Royal Commissions were what the above was about . Our latest attempt at making those that previously thought their position / standing / wealth etc. allowed them to get away with murder or t least inhumane behaviour.

I see AOC as the next in line to be used and abused by the Party she is using just now . Her ' brand ' works for the moment because she's novel.

11 hours ago, Kimmo said:

...but just take a look at the fact that despite technology having enabled this possibility for a couple of decades or more, a national conversation about the possibility remains the stuff of sci-fi, despite the widespread dissatisfaction with the political class and business as usual. 

The ratbags making bank from the status quo must be pretty happy with how paralysed peoples' imaginations are.  

nup. people are shitty and lovely and clever and wise and imaginative and wild and revolting and greedy and healthy and demented... which is why regardless of how much our tech supposedly allows us the 'freedom' to speak it will never be as you'd like it.

Maybe it's my lack of imagination... but the only way it would work is if people themselves fully owned and ran their own tech without it ever coming from another supplier ... how would that work ?

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1 hour ago, Kimmo said:

She's already started. 

Each one of the “Justice Democrats” has already been put onto committees where they will be taught how the real world operates.

AOC will be on the House Financial Services Committee. She promises to start “digging into banks”. 

She doesn’t realise it’s not just fire and brimstone socialism. She’ll have to listen to weeks of boring accounting lectures and competing statements, expert opinions, etc.

 

None of these activists realise that politics is and will remain a different business. She’ll be eaten alive, chewed and spit out in the mold of an establishment Left-of-Center Democrat.

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*sigh*

Yeah, cause huge Twitter followings never changed anything ever. 

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27 minutes ago, Kimmo said:

*sigh*

Yeah, cause huge Twitter followings never changed anything ever. 

David Duke and Alex Jones agree with your statement.

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Not sure whether it was this thread in which @Kimmo mentioned the morals and superior ethics of the left.

 

The  “Al Gore Effect” obviously couldn’t miss a chance to deliver.

 

The left wing mainstream press and other associated leftists doxxed a 16yo criminally white teenager for smiling at a Native American man, while giving a free pass to black supremacists hurling racial abuse at everyone.

 

Even Andrew Sullivan, a lion of the left - who hasn’t yet lost his marbles as completely as the rest, worries about democracy which is being destroyed by the left in a hysterical completely fact-free scorched-earth attitude to opposing Trump.

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13 minutes ago, Leonid said:

The left wing mainstream press and other associated leftists doxxed a 16yo criminally white teenager for smiling at a Native American man, while giving a free pass to black supremacists hurling racial abuse at everyone.

on the plus side, many outlets subsequently issued follow up stories with a little more balance

the story has received little to no coverage here, but it could turn into a bit of landmark moment

brilliant analysis in this article:

The real politics behind the Covington Catholic controversy, explained The Covington Catholic fight is American politics in microcosm.

 

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And yet the same media empires ruined a 16yo’s life on the basis of fake news, epically shithouse (which to be fair, is standard fare) reporting, labelled him a far right racist...

 

And then issued a “more balanced” story. Ain’t that great?

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from @~thhung's link up there ...

"The power of the MAGA hat

Here’s something to ponder: Would this event have gone viral if the Covington boys weren’t wearing MAGA hats? My guess: There’s a decent chance the answer is no."

... my brain goes ... " would  < insert appropriate hyped occasion > if the people weren't wearing burka's or the like ... you know that other clothing apparel that's considered by some as totally inappropriate today

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13 minutes ago, Leonid said:

And then issued a “more balanced” story. Ain’t that great?

not great.  but its a positive...like i already said.

in many respects "they" — although i generally tend to shrink from referring to "them" nutjob-style as a single entity — fucked up, and showed a self-aware capacity for course correction.

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1 minute ago, @~thehung said:

 

not great.  but its a positive...like i already said.

in many respects "they" — although i generally tend to shrink from referring to "them" nutjob-style as a single entity — fucked up, and showed a self-aware capacity for course correction.

You and I have differing views of "a positive".

You know what I think they should've done?

1. Fired the reporters who created that story and unjustifiably called out the kid as a racist

2. Offered immediate monetary compensation

3. Printed "mea culpas" and promises to do better, including an introspective piece on how the press is destroying society and democracy.

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11 minutes ago, eveln said:

Here’s something to ponder: Would this event have gone viral if the Covington boys weren’t wearing MAGA hats? My guess: There’s a decent chance the answer is no."

it wouldnt have gone viral, because it wouldnt have happened at all.

 

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2 minutes ago, @~thehung said:

it wouldnt have gone viral, because it wouldnt have happened at all.

 

Not to put it bluntly.... but the kids were there waiting for a bus.

They weren't there to piss anyone off. It was the Black Hebrew Israelites and the Native Americans that involved the kids.

 

Neither the Black Hebrew Israelites, nor Native Americans have had anything done to them by Trump to warrant racial abuse by adults of 16yo kids.

So yeah. It would have happened, anyway.

Edited by Leonid

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