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Kimmo

What a joke

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24 minutes ago, fliptopia said:

But then it's not thought crime if you are actually having an action from your thought. Am I incorrect?

Its a neologistic metaphor.

In this world you're not allowed to be a non-racist non-bigoted heteronormative ally to peoplekind and generally "woke" queen (no gender referred) and still believe that the science of biology trumps the bullshit quasi-astrological pseudoscience of gendered sociology.

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I figure I've never had a gender dysphoria issue. I've never felt I was anything other than male. I have had issues with other stuff though. Take addiction for example. I've never had a major issue with it but I quit sugar because I couldn't trust myself to stop when I know I should. But people say you should just get over it. If everyone could have the motivation to do all the things they believe would be best for them then addiction wouldn't happen. But even then some people just don't understand. I get that. When you have never felt that way and no one you know has felt that way then where do you get your experience from, except to say these people are just being precious?

Now I'm not saying we should be pandering to every "unusual" whim. Someone who's a paedophile as a super easy example will probably have some sort of addiction going on there. Many despise themselves for it. But you can't just say "hey go do your thing, be different". That has very negative consequences for others. 

But as long as your different way of brain function works isn't actually affecting other people then why not just let them be? Obviously they have a biological gender but something in their brain doesn't make that connect properly. I doubt I'll ever understand it but, seeing as it really doesn't matter to me, I just go with what suits them. Apart from asking for some respect they ask nothing more of me. 

If you want to compare that to the Christian who wants to tell people they're going to hell and how they should live their life and that they're abominations of nature then I see a difference there. 

I'm not expecting an about face from you on the issue either. You have your beliefs. But you never know.... 

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Also... on the subject of being "woke". I do find some of these woke people to be a bit rabid with their take downs of people too. Some of them have just found a more respectful way to behave towards others and within days are berating people for for what they would have said a week ago. It would be nice if there was more understanding that people with lifelong beliefs, backed up with the societies or at least micro environment of the time they were brought up in isn't going away easily. As someone who was a christian and would make all sorts of arguments I'd disagree with now I think you need to allow for time to change now and that people should be allowed to address things they wrote or did 20 years ago with the fresh eyes of who they are now. 

I hope most people learn something about their lives and how they lead it in that time. 

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I’m not saying “put them down” champ. I’m ok with mentally ill people having rights, whether they’re Marxists or reckon they’re two-spirit trans-mermaids. Far as I’m concerned, they can get married, adopt kids, get jobs and work for moolah like the rest of us.

But their fairy tale is their fairy tale. Not mine. 

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28 minutes ago, Leonid said:

I’m not saying “put them down” champ. I’m ok with mentally ill people having rights, whether they’re Marxists or reckon they’re two-spirit trans-mermaids. Far as I’m concerned, they can get married, adopt kids, get jobs and work for moolah like the rest of us.

But their fairy tale is their fairy tale. Not mine. 

 

What does it cost you to indulge them?.

edit: Sorry, I think I have confused the issue when i said "let them be" I didn't mean you would do anything untoward or whatever you're thinking. I meant let them be who the feel they are (if you are trying to tell them they are something different then I don't see how that is letting them be who they are).

Edited by fliptopia

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4 hours ago, Leonid said:

So just so you understand how ridiculous this is - you can walk up to a Christian and tell them that they’re a freaking fruit loop for believing in fairy tales, but you walk up to one of these walking cases of fraudulent advertising and explain to them that they are in fact just as much of a fruit loop for believing in fairy tales - and that’s a hate crime.

No idea. Why does it matter?

Because I find it hard to get worked up about a crime with no convictions. I mean, the thought police! Maybe they're thought convictions, and thought sentences?

Even if I didn't find your whole take on it being weird, uh, weird. Even for you.

 

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I dunno. Maybe it's not that weird for you. I vaguely remember you getting on board with team scrap that section of the RDAct. Maybe you're against countries that make it illegal to deny the Holocaust, too,because free speech trumps people's feelings.

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1 minute ago, Nich... said:

uh, weird. Even for you.

He probably needs to quit snorting JP...

Po-mo neo-Marxists under the bed, trying to crawl under his skin and rub the lotion on his brain.

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3 hours ago, fliptopia said:

What does it cost you to indulge them?.

Same thing it costs me to indulge anti-vaxxers.

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2 minutes ago, Leonid said:

Same thing it costs me to indulge anti-vaxxers.

You think more people are going to get preventable diseases and afflictions that have been nearly eradicated will start to spread again as we lose some of the "herd immunity"?

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1 hour ago, Nich... said:

Because I find it hard to get worked up about a crime with no convictions.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/transgender-pronouns-fine-nyc/

Have a read. All of it.

Refusing to "correct" yourself (hey which book is that from?) on matters of gender, can get you hit with a $250K fine, even if you are not in the slightest bit discriminatory... just scientifically accurate.

1 minute ago, fliptopia said:

You think more people are going to get preventable diseases and afflictions that have been nearly eradicated will start to spread again as we lose some of the "herd immunity"?

I think that we should be able to tell people that they believe in fairy tales. Whether they're Marxists, anti-vaxxers or two-spirit trans-mermaids.

And we shouldn't have to go along with any of their bullshit.

Edited by Leonid

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1 hour ago, Nich... said:

I dunno. Maybe it's not that weird for you. I vaguely remember you getting on board with team scrap that section of the RDAct. Maybe you're against countries that make it illegal to deny the Holocaust, too,because free speech trumps people's feelings.

I've got plenty of objection to anyone denying the Holocaust. I'd have a big problem if calling them a fucking fruitloop was illegal tho.

Maybe some of you need some help understanding how the basics of free speech work?

Free speech isn't protection from consequences of said speech. But the instant government says "you can't say that" or face fines - well then we have a fucking problem. The only exception is when there's a clear threat of violent action. Then we gotta curb it.

Edited by Leonid
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11 minutes ago, Leonid said:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/transgender-pronouns-fine-nyc/

Have a read. All of it.

Refusing to "correct" yourself (hey which book is that from?) on matters of gender, can get you hit with a $250K fine, even if you are not in the slightest bit discriminatory... just scientifically accurate.

I think that we should be able to tell people that they believe in fairy tales. Whether they're Marxists, anti-vaxxers or two-spirit trans-mermaids.

And we shouldn't have to go along with any of their bullshit.

Not being discriminatory in your eyes maybe? Is there no irony in that you think that you get to say which world view is the most valid one? Are you suggesting that people should just change their mental state?

Are you saying that the reason you don't engage with the ideas of Marxists, anti-vaxxers and people with a gender dysphoria is solely that they live outside of what you think is reality and not their affect on other people. 

I'm not trying to be a dick about this. These are the questions that I'm trying to get through to get my head around your position. I feel like I'm getting closer to understanding but I don't like to presuppose these things.

19 minutes ago, neoprint said:

Oh boy, that was quite the wild ride. 

 

 

You talk like the ride has finished 😉

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10 minutes ago, fliptopia said:

Not being discriminatory in your eyes maybe? Is there no irony in that you think that you get to say which world view is the most valid one? Are you suggesting that people should just change their mental state?

Am I a helicopter? Because if I seriously believed I was a helicopter, should you indulge me?

What if I truly believed I was Jesus?

10 minutes ago, fliptopia said:

Are you saying that the reason you don't engage with the ideas of Marxists, anti-vaxxers and people with a gender dysphoria is solely that they live outside of what you think is reality and not their affect on other people. 

There's a wide gulf between the three. Marxists and anti-vaxxers are both wrong and followers of a murderous ideology and (I suspect) mentally ill with an affliction of cognitive bias. Hard to even pick between the two given the former murders everything, while the latter targets kids.

People with gender dysphoria are only mentally ill. Dysphoria doesn't "mean" quite that, but it's in that realm.

What we are doing is criminalising non-indulgence of an illness. It's the rough equivalent of shaking an amputee's hand because they have BIID and think the hand is still there. Like just think through that shit for a second.

BIID is a dysphoria. Imagine if that was criminalised so that if someone proffered you their non-existent hand and you didn't shake it even when asked - that would be a crime, or at least a civil offence? It's fucken stupid, ain't it?

Edited by Leonid

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2 minutes ago, Leonid said:

Am I a helicopter? Because if I seriously believed I was a helicopter, should you indulge me?

What if I truly believed I was Jesus?

Firstly: In both cases you are asking for more than a simple gender pronoun to be used.

What do you do as a helicopter or Jesus. If you just want to be called Jesus then sure, I'll call you whatever name you want to go by. Why not. I call people on here by whatever name they go by as their login name after all. As a helicopter, unless you were trying to jump off a roof, honestly it's just not my business. I'd probably keep my distance as I find the idea that you think you have spinning blades over your head to be a bit more out there than having a willy that doesn't seem to fit with who you think you are. Again, if you just wanted be known by your supposed VIN then I might even laugh internally but I'd go along with it.

2 minutes ago, Leonid said:

There's a wide gulf between the three. Marxists and anti-vaxxers are both wrong and followers of a murderous ideology and (I suspect) mentally ill with an affliction of cognitive bias. Hard to even pick between the two given the former murders everything, while the latter targets kids.

People with gender dysphoria are only mentally ill. Dysphoria doesn't "mean" quite that, but it's in that realm.

What we are doing is criminalising non-indulgence of a an illness.

So of the stories I've heard of people with gender dysphoria (and I haven't known more than a couple first hand) it seems in many cases they are being told they are their biological gender from as far back as they know. Some have parents that indulge them from an early age but by the time someone has lived through 20/30 /40 years of feeling that way, what do you think is the best way to deal with the situation? Do you insist on mr/mrs/ms? Do you just make sure to drop the pronoun (I don't know many I call sir, maam, mr or mrs whatever anyway)? Option c that I haven't thought up just yet?

What about names. How do you feel is the best way to deal with that?

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2 minutes ago, fliptopia said:

Firstly: In both cases you are asking for more than a simple gender pronoun to be used.

Which is only half the story ain't it? Because it's not just a gender pronoun. It's accepting them as women if they're males identifying as such.

Fucks sake dude. There's a bloke who converted to a girl, and now is the youth champion for whatever division of wrestling.

Wha if I desire to be treated like Jesus of Nazareth? You know... son of god and shit... and you have to indulge that?

7 minutes ago, fliptopia said:

Some have parents that indulge them from an early age but by the time someone has lived through 20/30 /40 years of feeling that way, what do you think is the best way to deal with the situation?

Sympathy for their mental illness and no encouragement of it.

---

This reminds me of a chat I had a few weeks ago with a friend of a friend on this topic. And she's a bit weird - one of them sorta-Greenie types, notwithstanding the fact that every person in Australia that doesn't live under a rock knows how rich her parents are - and she has no compunction about being little rich girl.

I asked her to imagine a nuclear holocaust. Most of humanity is dead or dying. The only hope of rebuilding the human race is to put key people into space for 100 years (come on, everyone loves The 100, amirite?). Limited resources, the fewer the number, the higher the chance of survival.

How many gender studies majors would you put up there?

Oh you should've seen the look on her face.

 

The conversation got worse from there. She did the usual lefty thing and accused me of bigotry to which I asked if she'd ever sleep with a female->male trans. That shut her up real quick.

When push comes to shove... most people know... And it doesn't matter how much your "woke" friends have peer-pressured you into speaking absolute BS... your brain, subject to it being functional and logical, simply won't compute the mental gymnastics required to actually truly believe it.

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1 minute ago, Leonid said:

Which is only half the story ain't it? Because it's not just a gender pronoun. It's accepting them as women if they're males identifying as such.

Fucks sake dude. There's a bloke who converted to a girl, and now is the youth champion for whatever division of wrestling.

Wha if I desire to be treated like Jesus of Nazareth? You know... son of god and shit... and you have to indulge that?

Now, moving into sport is a different matter. I'd agree with you more in that. I don't know how to best deal with that. I was listening to an interview with Hannah Mouncey and looked her up afterwards and my thoughts were that as a guy I didn't want to have to lay a tackle on. But I'm not the person who would have to do the tackling. Do you put it to a vote for the people who play against her. Does it matter as much if it were say netball instead of a full body contact sport? I think maybe it will be a case of gender of origin in the future. For me there are some difficult things to answer in the context of sport if for no other reason than possible safety issues. Maybe it's a situation where it becomes an issue for trans women over a certain size?

For you walking down the streets of New York, though. You generally will just have to worry about a gender pronoun.

How does Jesus of Nazareth want to be treated? If you want to preach in the corner of a park to gain followers then are you any worse than the people already preaching in parks? Or people who believe they have been put in positions of power by Jesus. We seem to tolerate those people ok.

 

1 minute ago, Leonid said:

Sympathy for their mental illness and no encouragement of it.

Does that come in the form of one of the above forms I mentioned or something else?

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5 minutes ago, fliptopia said:

Now, moving into sport is a different matter. I'd agree with you more in that. I don't know how to best deal with that.

Do you not raise the contradiction here? You're happy to call these people females, but when it comes to actually being female - oh no... can't have that.

Would you sleep with one? Get married to one and try to get one pregnant to start your family together?

 

5 minutes ago, fliptopia said:

How does Jesus of Nazareth want to be treated?

I need you to indulge my every whim and desire so that my old man can furnish you with a place in the heaven you don't believe in.

 

5 minutes ago, fliptopia said:

Does that come in the form of one of the above forms I mentioned or something else?

Just deal with it like I deal with Marxists. I acknowledge that they believe they're humanitarian pro-human-rights light unto the nations types.

I just know they ain't, have ample axiomatic evidence to prove it, and won't polish a turd.

Edited by Leonid

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7 minutes ago, Leonid said:

Do you not reaise the contradiction here? You're happy to call these people females, but when it comes to actually being female - oh no... can't have that.

I've said from the start though that I'm happy to call people whatever as long as there is no harm done. 250lb trans female might be an exception. I'm not an expert though and if people more knowledgeable than myself okay'd it then that's fine. I would still treat that person as female in every other respect though. You could maybe liken it to being able to train with a steroid that every other competitor can't use to get to that state. It's not necessarily a level playing field. Again, this is speculation on my part and I recognise it's just a view from the outside.

8 minutes ago, Leonid said:

I need you to indulge my every whim and desire so that my old man can furnish you with a place in the heaven you don't believe in.

So are you asking for a slave/servant to do things for you?

8 minutes ago, Leonid said:

Just deal with it like I deal with Marxists. I acknowledge that they believe they're humanitarian pro-human-rights light unto the nations types.

I just know they ain't and won't polish a turd.

OK I think i'm done with that line of questioning 

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31 minutes ago, fliptopia said:

I would still treat that person as female in every other respect though

The lies we tell ourselves... 🙂

34 minutes ago, fliptopia said:

So are you asking for a slave/servant to do things for you?

I am Jesus of Nazareth. You pray to my father for salvation and I can ensure your sins are forgiven.

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1 minute ago, Leonid said:

The lies we tell ourselves... 🙂

That's OK, I don't expect I'll fully understand you either 😉

1 minute ago, Leonid said:

I am Jesus of Nazareth. You pray to my father for salvation and I can ensure your sins are forgiven.

Well that would be a fascinating conversation. I honestly hope I'd have the time to explore which version of Jesus you thought you were, kind of like how I get so interested by every Jehovahs witness. Getting down to the nitty gritty of someone's belief is kind of a hobby. Of course I wouldn't worship but I doubt even if there were a real Jesus running about town that he'd expect everyone to see him for who he was.

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1 minute ago, fliptopia said:

Of course I wouldn't worship but I doubt even if there were a real Jesus running about town that he'd expect everyone to see him for who he was.

That sounds like you're applying your own values and not respecting my identification, like that 250kg "woman" who you wouldn't sleep with because "she" probably has plumbing bigger than yours and you don't swing that way 🙂

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