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Kimmo

What a joke

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7 hours ago, SacrificialNewt said:

But that doesn't mean we can't discuss our outrage.

Of course not. We all still can apparently, which is what I am doing too

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6 hours ago, fliptopia said:

The "leader of the free world" holding his breath til he gets what he wants warrants discussion, no?

Yes it does.

The POTUS is not holding his breath. He's holding the breaths of several hundred thousands of American workers. You'd think that'd make the opposing side want to come to the table in order to talk, compromise ... you know, in order to
help all those people, their countrymen /women / LGTBIQers out there put food on their tables and pay their heating bills, school fees etc.etc.

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2 hours ago, eveln said:

 You'd think that'd make the opposing side want to come to the table in order to talk, compromise ... you know, in order to

help all those people, their countrymen /women / LGTBIQers out there put food on their tables and pay their heating bills, school fees etc.etc.

Both sides are all or nothing. I think that is the nature of a wall. You build it all or you don't build it. I don't tho k either side is refusing to talk but neither side can really get what they want. At this stage whoever backs down first is going to likely look very bad without some clever play in the media. 

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On 1/21/2019 at 7:00 AM, eveln said:

How come you didn't come in and make this thread when Obama shut down their Government ? Oh yes I know ... cos it's not really about the the workers affected but the governing body of the day ... just a tad hypocritical, much ?

This bit stuck in my craw the most... So I'm just a tribal partisan, huh? 

I'm prepared to give Dems/Labour/Labor a free pass while I just use my one eye to observe the wrongs of GOP/Tories/Libs, is that it? 

Like fucking fuck. You should look before you leap. 

As far as I'm concerned, the neoliberal scumbags that have infiltrated the side of politics that is supposed to stick up for workers and community are the bad guys. The other side are unconscionably evil filth whose agenda shouldn't even be on the fucking table; the sooner those dinosaurs get tarred as Nazis and written off, the better, because the real argument should be between Dems/Labour/Labor and the Greens. 

If I seem partisan to you, it's because I don't acknowledge the right of parties of big business scammers and white supremacists to even fucking exist. 

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11 hours ago, Nich... said:

Didn't pick you for an appeaser tbh, eveln

Why not ?

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9 hours ago, Kimmo said:

This bit stuck in my craw the most... So I'm just a tribal partisan, huh? 

I'm prepared to give Dems/Labour/Labor a free pass while I just use my one eye to observe the wrongs of GOP/Tories/Libs, is that it? 

Like fucking fuck. You should look before you leap. 

As far as I'm concerned, the neoliberal scumbags that have infiltrated the side of politics that is supposed to stick up for workers and community are the bad guys. The other side are unconscionably evil filth whose agenda shouldn't even be on the fucking table; the sooner those dinosaurs get tarred as Nazis and written off, the better, because the real argument should be between Dems/Labour/Labor and the Greens. 

If I seem partisan to you, it's because I don't acknowledge the right of parties of big business scammers and white supremacists to even fucking exist. 

Not sure how you can so easily tell who is who today.

Seems to me, the lines are blurred and people who, imo, behave like one thing are actually listed and a part of the other team << works for whether you be talking about Aus, USA, or UK.

I didn't actually label you partisan or anything really, although I did think from old times you were more concerned for the people on the street who are the first to feel the brunt of Gov. decisions first and mostly hardest. So it surprised me to see
this thread title come up. Looked just like another of the many hate on Trump shit with little thought to the fact he wasn't the only one causing the shit .I have to admit her that Pelosi is sticking in my craw these days. I find the attitude of her
just now totally abhorrent ... but there ya go we all have different nerve endings that are pushed by different things ?

Edited by eveln

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1 hour ago, eveln said:

Not sure how you can so easily tell who is who today.

Seems to me, the lines are blurred and people who, imo, behave like one thing are actually listed and a part of the other team << works for whether you be talking about Aus, USA, or UK.

I didn't actually label you partisan or anything really, although I did think from old times you were more concerned for the people on the street who are the first to feel the brunt of Gov. decisions first and mostly hardest. So it surprised me to see
this thread title come up. Looked just like another of the many hate on Trump shit with little thought to the fact he wasn't the only one causing the shit .I have to admit her that Pelosi is sticking in my craw these days. I find the attitude of her
just now totally abhorrent ... but there ya go we all have different nerve endings that are pushed by different things ?

So how do you feel about Trump? I haven't been back long enough to gauge your feelings on that psychopath.

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14 hours ago, fliptopia said:

I understand your point on this but we can give the money with provisos that is spent in a certain way. A good example of this is schooling and dictating a crrtain amount of what is taught to help get citizens of other countries with ideas more compatible with citizens of yours.

Again with the comparison, do you never give to charities because of the portion that goes to administration? 

Without some foreign aid some countries are less stable, meaning more refugees. It's all about spending it wisely. 

 

Lets not conflate foreign aid with personal charitable giving.

 

With respect to your points... and because I know this topic like the back of my hand...

 

Imagine a scenario where a fictitious country with a dictator we shall call Abu Mazen, courts the world for aid.

Abu Mazen’s sons become the richest people in that country, the population remains living in shanty towns and Abu Mazen, absolved of responsibility of paying for services for his people on account of foreign aid - uses money raised through taxes to pay stipends to murderers with progressive curve based on the number of people murdered.

 

That’s actually how foreign aid works.

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2 minutes ago, Leonid said:

Lets not conflate foreign aid with personal charitable giving.

 

With respect to your points... and because I know this topic like the back of my hand...

 

Imagine a scenario where a fictitious country with a dictator we shall call Abu Mazen, courts the world for aid.

Abu Mazen’s sons become the richest people in that country, the population remains living in shanty towns and Abu Mazen, absolved of responsibility of paying for services for his people on account of foreign aid - uses money raised through taxes to pay stipends to murderers with progressive curve based on the number of people murdered.

 

That’s actually how foreign aid works.

Then you're looking at how you make your foreign aid accountable. If you aren't buying some I flue ce in how things are done then you aren't doing it right. 

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10 hours ago, Kimmo said:

If I seem partisan to you, it's because I don't acknowledge the right of parties of big business scammers and white supremacists to even fucking exist. 

I think the best Socialist is a dead Socialist (and that’s just on account of the endemic racism in that ideology) and that those who have no net positive contribution to the tax base, don’t deserve to be at the table when said revenue is apportioned.

 

1 minute ago, fliptopia said:

Then you're looking at how you make your foreign aid accountable. If you aren't buying some I flue ce in how things are done then you aren't doing it right. 

We give Indonesia a few hundred million annually for them to execute our citizens, promote Islamic Sharia and flirt with freeing the spiritual mastermind of the murder of 88 Australians.

Every cent we give to these places for things they should be paying for, is a cent they spend against our interests.

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44 minutes ago, Leonid said:

We give Indonesia a few hundred million annually for them to execute our citizens, promote Islamic Sharia and flirt with freeing the spiritual mastermind of the murder of 88 Australians.

Every cent we give to these places for things they should be paying for, is a cent they spend against our interests.

They would execute our citizens (for breaking their laws), promote Islamic law and free whoever they wanted with or without our money. You have to look at how the outcomes could be worse without the influence gained through the aid program. If we aren't getting better outcomes then we have to look how we change the terms of aid so we do. Foreign aid should always be buying something of value.

I'm OK if we just disagree on this. I think we've both made our positions clear

 

Edited by fliptopia

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12 hours ago, fliptopia said:
14 hours ago, eveln said:

 You'd think that'd make the opposing side want to come to the table in order to talk, compromise ... you know, in order to

help all those people, their countrymen /women / LGTBIQers out there put food on their tables and pay their heating bills, school fees etc.etc.

Both sides are all or nothing. I think that is the nature of a wall. You build it all or you don't build it. I don't tho k either side is refusing to talk but neither side can really get what they want. At this stage whoever backs down first is going to likely look very bad without some clever play in the media. 

I thought the Gov. were having trouble trying to get the Dems to come and sit at the table ... ie: Pelosi choosing to go to Brussels rather than stay and chat ... who knows < shrugs >  as for the wall bizzo, I don't understand the Dems change of heart,
I mean, didn't Obama make a start during his time ? ... or am I mis-remembering ?

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1 hour ago, SacrificialNewt said:
2 hours ago, eveln said:

Not sure how you can so easily tell who is who today.

Seems to me, the lines are blurred and people who, imo, behave like one thing are actually listed and a part of the other team << works for whether you be talking about Aus, USA, or UK.

I didn't actually label you partisan or anything really, although I did think from old times you were more concerned for the people on the street who are the first to feel the brunt of Gov. decisions first and mostly hardest. So it surprised me to see
this thread title come up. Looked just like another of the many hate on Trump shit with little thought to the fact he wasn't the only one causing the shit .I have to admit her that Pelosi is sticking in my craw these days. I find the attitude of her
just now totally abhorrent ... but there ya go we all have different nerve endings that are pushed by different things ?

So how do you feel about Trump? I haven't been back long enough to gauge your feelings on that psychopath. 

Well ditto, I haven't tried to gauge your feelings on him either ... I figured if you wanted to share you would.

Also not sure how my feelings about Trump have anything to do with why you quoted me up above, but hey, since you asked ... "Conflicted" with a definite capitol "C". He's heading towards two and a half years and the country is still there.
Looking back to the day he became POTUS and the succeeding weeks, I would've thought end times for the USofA. Perhaps end-times are still to come.

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44 minutes ago, eveln said:

I thought the Gov. were having trouble trying to get the Dems to come and sit at the table ... ie: Pelosi choosing to go to Brussels rather than stay and chat ... who knows < shrugs >  as for the wall bizzo, I don't understand the Dems change of heart,
I mean, didn't Obama make a start during his time ? ... or am I mis-remembering ?

trouble getting the Dems to sit at the table?  hardly!  yeah, its an intractable stalemate, so arguably "both sides are to blame".  but Trump has previously just walked out of meetings.  got up, walked out, disappeared. many of his apologists would deem that a justifiable tactic if it gets the job done, but if anyone is the one true shitlord of bad faith negotiation here, its him.

re: Pelosi's trip, that "story" is little more than Trump's dummy spit over her talk of postponing the State of the Union Address given the circumstances, which was both her playing politics AND being entirely reasonable.

if the polls are to believed, only around a third of country blames the DNC specifically for the deadlock — which i believe is more accurate than not.

Edited by @~thehung
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1 hour ago, eveln said:

I thought the Gov. were having trouble trying to get the Dems to come and sit at the table ... ie: Pelosi choosing to go to Brussels rather than stay and chat ... who knows < shrugs >  as for the wall bizzo, I don't understand the Dems change of heart,
I mean, didn't Obama make a start during his time ? ... or am I mis-remembering ?

Sort of and before he was president. A fence and less actual distance covered https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/apr/23/mick-mulvaney/fact-check-did-top-democrats-vote-border-wall-2006/

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44 minutes ago, @~thehung said:

trouble getting the Dems to sit at the table?  hardly!  yeah, its an intractable stalemate, so arguably "both sides are to blame".  but Trump has previously just walked out of meetings.  got up, walked out, disappeared. many of his apologists would deem that a justifiable tactic if it gets the job done, but if anyone is the one true shitlord of bad faith negotiation here, its him.

re: Pelosi's trip, that "story" is little more than Trump's dummy spit over her talk of postponing the State of the Union Address given the circumstances, which was both her playing politics AND being entirely reasonable.

if the polls are to believed, only around a third of country blames the DNC specifically for the deadlock — which i believe is more accurate than not.

You know... I stopped believing a thing I heard about Trump when I saw this:

Consider, just for one moment... that maybe Trump isn’t a psychopathic racist who wants to start a nuclear war and bankrupt America in his first week of Presidency. Because that is what we were asked to believe.

 

When @eveln tells you she’s “conflicted” it’s because she can see that there is clearly something wrong about Trump reporting.

 

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1 hour ago, eveln said:

Well ditto, I haven't tried to gauge your feelings on him either ... I figured if you wanted to share you would.

Also not sure how my feelings about Trump have anything to do with why you quoted me up above, but hey, since you asked ... "Conflicted" with a definite capitol "C". He's heading towards two and a half years and the country is still there.
Looking back to the day he became POTUS and the succeeding weeks, I would've thought end times for the USofA. Perhaps end-times are still to come.

My description of 'that psychopath' may be telling of what I think of him. 

I asked what you thought because I am getting conflicting points from you. You obviously disagree with a government shutdown and what it infers for the public workforce, but you seem to be sympathising with Trump's reasoning for it.

So, your response of 'conflicted' matches what I picked up on. At least that's something.

 

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7 minutes ago, Leonid said:

You know... I stopped believing a thing I heard about Trump when I saw this:

Consider, just for one moment... that maybe Trump isn’t a psychopathic racist who wants to start a nuclear war and bankrupt America in his first week of Presidency. Because that is what we were asked to believe.

 

When @eveln tells you she’s “conflicted” it’s because she can see that there is clearly something wrong about Trump reporting.

 

How exactly did that stop you believing? It's cheap, rubbish media, but how do you know it's false?

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42 minutes ago, Leonid said:

there is clearly something wrong about Trump reporting.

i have no argument with this statement.  ...not that i need to be told.

the game is more vicious than it ever was, and unfortunately the rampant butthurt hysteria of the left has them putting the ethics of the fourth estate in jeopardy all by themselves, which, gallingly, only plays into Trump's cancerously regressive 'enemy of the people' rhetoric.  

take Elizabeth Warren, for example, i havent checked this, but i would bet that articles critical of the shit she pulled over her claims of native heritage are thin on the ground in the vast majority of mainstream "left-leaning" outlets.  instead, its all about reactions to Trump's dickhead bullying behaviour on the topic — ie. foolishly letting him dictate their agenda, because the other option — simple unbiased reportage — is currently off the table.  or, how about the saga of the recent supreme court nomination.  do a search of all press and see how thin on the ground terms of critical importance like "due process" are, outside of ridiculous conservative rags.   the media is following "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" mantra straight to hell. 

but all it means is you have to consume more, and read between more lines, to get as close to the "real" picture as you could before.

thankfully, in Australia, for the time being at least, "left-leaning" still means left-leaning.  so when it comes to satire, for example, even the commies at the ABC will unflinchingly tear strips off Labor when its warranted.  a similar thing is all but impossible in the US at the moment, and that is far from healthy.

 

Edited by @~thehung
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50 minutes ago, SacrificialNewt said:

How exactly did that stop you believing? It's cheap, rubbish media, but how do you know it's false?

The point is that it’s utterly irrelevant whether it’s true or false. It’s utterly petty, vindictive bullshit that wouldn’t qualify as news reporting when news was still reported.

 

Some people believe Trump is breaking democracy. I’m thinking he’s just what was brought on by factors of frustration and desperation.

 

I think the fourth estate is bent on destroying democracy because they are a fifth column. @Kimmo is right in a way. He just has the wrong evil in his sights.

 

The media has become a splintered advocacy movement, but with a louder voice and with the inertial trust we’ve had for their supposed impartiality. We bend to their whims.

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3 hours ago, Leonid said:

Some people believe Trump is breaking democracy. I’m thinking he’s just what was brought on by factors of frustration and desperation.

Those are not mutually exclusive positions: he can be a symptom *and* be a total disaster from which their Republic will take decades to recover.

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Heh,

The media doesn't need to make up "fake news" about Trump, he does it to himself and it's not fake.

Serving burgers at the WH? Drinking diet Coke by the bucketful?  being pathological about TV remotes? Refusing to release his tax returns? denying unpalatable truth about his "romantic" affairs ? Providing no evidence beyond his utterly discredited word that there were no dealings with Russia? his disinclination to read his daily reports? The hours he spends watching television? His ignorance of the facts that make a mockery of his wall?

The list goes on but it is all documented either on camera or from witnesses whose validity cannot be discredited, including members of his own party.

I'm not particularly worried about him starting WWIII though, the checks and balances in the system will prevent him from that act of pique...

He's appalling in so many ways that words fail...

Cheers

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2 hours ago, Cybes said:

Those are not mutually exclusive positions: he can be a symptom *and* be a total disaster from which their Republic will take decades to recover.

lol. He's one man against zillions of rabid batshit screaming rampant leftists who have to my mind lost allll reason. ( I agree with that part of @~thehung's comment ) They hurt any chance of making things right afaic ... I'm more worried for America once the Dems reclaim the throne which they obviously will. Sooo glad,  that I don't live there ... the future would freak me out ... I would probably try to immigrate to Australia

On another point : Living and working in a Tourist town, this last six months has seen more Americans spending some cash than it has for the last three or four years really. ... just an observation.

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7 hours ago, SacrificialNewt said:

My description of 'that psychopath' may be telling of what I think of him. 

I asked what you thought because I am getting conflicting points from you. You obviously disagree with a government shutdown and what it infers for the public workforce, but you seem to be sympathising with Trump's reasoning for it.

So, your response of 'conflicted' matches what I picked up on. At least that's something.

 

I disagree with the length of time of this Gov. shutdown. He's the President and just like previous Presidents has the right to choose to shutdown and when and where he will hold addresses and what food he will eat and how he will eat it ...
they all do. I used to think Bush junior was a psychopath too, just a different type of one .

So glad you approve of my thoughts ? ... sorry I know that sounds sarcastic and it is, but really truly ?!  I don't think I've criticised you for your thoughts yet. I've not even criticised Kimmo for his. I have only criticised him for his style of thread
opening and how I perceived it going ... which it duly has

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