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Kimmo

What a joke

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When you break a country's law, you can be locked up.

During wartime all countries view immigrants ( legal and illegal ) critically ... to not do so is foolish to say the least.

I honestly think George and AOC both need to sit down and watch some footage taken of the allies freeing the survivors of actual concentration camps, and then apologise for attempting the comparison. ffs

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Posted (edited)

Perhaps you did not play the clip Cybes attached  Ev, here is a piece by the same author:

 

https://www.gq.com/story/us-border-concentration-camps

 

No one is suggesting that the camps are about to go gassing people or that they are being starved to death although there is certainly evidence of sub-standard food and a drastic lack of basic amenities but what they are stating is that the camps are treating the refugees, detainees, whatever you want to call them, very poorly.

 

It is rather extreme to invoke this as a "war," it isn't, these people are desperate and do not see that they have anywhere else to go.

 

Trump has been demonising them from day one - it's despicable.

 

Cheers

 

 

Edited by chrisg

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its a bit more nuanced than that eveln

 

Euphemisms, Concentration Camps And The Japanese Internment, (Opinion, NPR, 2012)

 

The OED defines a concentration camp as, "a camp where non-combatants of a district are accommodated, such as those instituted by Lord Kitchener during the Boer War (1899–1902); one for the internment of political prisoners, foreign nationals, etc., esp. as organized by the Nazi regime in Germany before and during the war of 1939–45."

Nazis put Jews, and millions of non-Jews, into about 20,000 camps during the war. According to the Holocaust Museum, these camps ranged from forced-labor camps where internees worked as slave labor, transit camps that served as holding pins before sending people off to Auschwitz and other places, and extermination camps, or death camps, built primarily for mass murder. Today, we often identify the phrase "concentration camp" with the latter, though the museum itself has a broader definition, and one that may be clearer than either of the dictionary ones. The museum says:

 

    "The term concentration camp refers to a camp in which people are detained or confined, usually under harsh conditions and without regard to legal norms of arrest and imprisonment that are acceptable in a constitutional democracy."

 

not that AOC wasnt being misleading and provocative based on how the term is most often understood today, but the above definition applies.

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3 hours ago, eveln said:

As hard as it was for George and his family to be interned in the States, it still does not compare with the concentration camps referred to by AOC. That is just the simple fact of it.

 

You really should watch the video. Germans did not invent concentration camps, nor are theirs exemplars.

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9 minutes ago, Cybes said:

 

You really should watch the video. Germans did not invent concentration camps, nor are theirs exemplars.

I will at home tonight ... My father was at Borneo during WW2 ... I don't believe I stated that Germans invented concentration camps. In fact I'm sure I did not. I am simply astounded that AOC used the descriptor

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Posted (edited)

It's a complicated argument.

 

At its simplest refugees attempting to enter America illegally are by definition breaking the laws of the U.S. and can be arrested.

 

However arrest has implications, in particular preferring charges and if necessary sentencing as appropriate., "In as speedy a manner as practical. "

 

That does not fit with the American requirement because being sentenced to even a Southern U.S. prison would very likely be a considerable improvement upon the current lot of those breaking the law.

 

So instead the persons, who in the end are just trying to survive, are being held in limbo. Under U.S. law that is actually illegal,. An argument could be made for that being the same case here in Australia but we have been circumventing the spirit of the law by holding refugees off-shore.

 

No such protection exists in this case because the camps are on U.S. soil but the U.S can be remarkably proficient at ignoring its own laws when it suits, Guantanamo or if you would like to reach back further the McCarthy era are solid examples. (Technically Guantanamo is U.S. soil but the legislators wriggle out of that one.)

 

There is no easy answer, we have been grappling with it for decades but that does not reduce the misery that is being inflicted upon those who did not choose to be stuck in this situation.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by chrisg

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Ya know. It can shit one off to be considered ignorant of history , I guess I should be used to it.

 

Every body is so fucking focused on what America ( and other western countries )  should do to house the 'refugees', and not what the countries these people are running from are not doing properly. It's just bullshit imo.

 

Also these detentions centres might be hard work, but they do not compare in any way with the horrors of past . AOC should be fucking ashamed to show her face.

 

If you lot want to watch vids I suggest you look up some real life history of what concentration camps actually did to once healthy human beings.

 

... end of rant. I'm out for the night.

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!!!

 

What the countries these people are running from are not doing right !!???!!

 

To one degree or another they are engaged in genocide, that's why these people are running in the first place.

 

If you cannot see that then it is impossible to have a rational  discussion with you - then again it mostly is any way....

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I really, really do feel sorry for this woman:

 

https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/inside-the-trump-marriage-michael-wolff-book-claims-donald-and-melania-lead-separate-lives/news-story/782af09528c7696217d116fd1460ff7d

 

She never asked to be put in the spotlight and she has spent a couple of years keeping herself as far removed from it as possible but as the braying hounds circle in the lead up to the next election she is inevitably going to be drawn into it.

 

I do not normally subscribe to conspiracy theories at all but I really do wonder if it is not true that Trump is using a body double to have her represented at numerous functions.

 

Cheers

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4 hours ago, eveln said:

Ya know. It can shit one off to be considered ignorant of history , I guess I should be used to it.

 

Look, I don't know what you do and don't know - how could I, since the only contact we have is the occasional post here?  But you opened this conversation asking what history books AOC had read to term them concentration camps, and there's not a little opinion that goes her way, citing historical events.  To my mind, with nothing else to go on, that looks to me like she knew something you didn't in this case.

 

If you did know those things already, and merely disagreed with her choice of words, you could have stated it that way and not as a question.  I would not have 'answered' a statement.

 

 

2 hours ago, chrisg said:

[Melania] never asked to be put in the spotlight and she has spent a couple of years keeping herself as far removed from it as possible

 

Wild speculation: Melania is Trump's handler; assigned by Putin himself and given the directive to have a child to bind l'Orange to her.  Naturally, she finds him repulsive, but orders are orders.

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5 hours ago, Cybes said:

 

If you did know those things already, and merely disagreed with her choice of words, you could have stated it that way and not as a question.  I would not have 'answered' a statement.

 

this was my initial reaction to her stupid statement  ..." I'm a bit curious to know which history books AOC has been reading to use the description " concentration camps ", and then think she got it right :\ "

No question did I ask anywhere.

I'm over my curiosity about her fountain of knowledge .

 

 

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🙂

 

Your "wild speculation" would explain rather a lot Cybes  🙂

 

Cheers

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... And that up there is why we are made of fail 

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It's also bullshit as already noted the term "concentration camp" existed well before the Nazis took it to extremes.

 

Get off the grass, she needed to make a point, she created a reaction, which was her intention, winner...

 

Perhaps now more concern will be directed towards the despicable way the Mexican, if they even are from Mexico, the caravans have come a long way in some cases, are being treated.

 

The U.S. was built on immigration, not very well if you ask me and they are once again showing despicable contempt for people in desperate need.

 

Trump has to rank as the most complete failure of a President that the U.S. has ever seen, I'll partly excuse him because it is becoming more apparent daily just how senile/demented he is.

For Gods sake, get him away from the Iran situation before another round of M.E. debacles starts and given his inability to back down by much at all that could go close to going nuclear.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

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I reckon AOC has proved again she speaks shit others tell her too without realising the full impact .I also reckon she's proven that modern day refugees get it good when one actually goes back to look at what happened to people in actual concentration camps from times past.

Why should refugees get more benefits handed to them  than the poor citizens of what ever country the refugee is trying to get into ?

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Posted (edited)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddawkins/2019/06/24/george-soros-leads-chorus-of-billionaires-calling-for-a-new-wealth-tax/#1ef036b11ce7

"  Billionaire George Soros and members of the Gund and Pritzker families are among a number of the world’s wealthiest business leaders to have signed a letter calling for a new U.S. wealth tax.

Soros and the other signatories claim that a tax of 2 cents on the dollar on assets over $50 million, and an additional tax of 1 cent on the dollar on assets over $1 billion, could generate $3 trillion in tax revenue over ten years.

The letter, released today, addressed to “2020 Presidential Candidates” claims “America has a moral, ethical and economic responsibility to tax our wealth more. A wealth tax could help address the climate crisis, improve the economy, improve health outcomes, fairly create opportunity, and strengthen our democratic freedoms. Instituting a wealth tax is in the interest of our republic.”

Presented as a “call to action,” the letter addresses the growing gap between the world’s wealthiest and argues that millions of middle-income Americans already pay a wealth tax in the form of property taxes on their primary form of wealth—their home.

“The next dollar of new tax revenue should come from the most financially fortunate, not from middle-income and lower-income Americans.”

Although described as nonpartisan and not an “endorsement of any presidential candidate,” the letter names Senator Elizabeth Warren, Mayor Pete Buttigieg, and Representative Beto O’Rourke, as supportive of the wealth tax idea. The letter does not mention Senator Bernie Sanders. "

Sanders in the past has argued for an estate tax plan with rates up to 77% on inheritances of more than $3.5 million. Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has said that income above $10 million may need to be taxed up to 70%.

The complete list of signatories includes: Louise J. Bowditch, Robert S. Bowditch, Abigail Disney, Sean Eldridge, Stephen R. English, Agnes Gund, Catherine Gund, Nick Hanauer, Arnold Hiatt, Chris Hughes, Molly Munger, Regan Pritzker, Justin Rosenstein, Stephen M.Silberstein, Ian T. Simmons, Liesel Pritzker Simmons, Alexander Soros, George Soros."

 

Maybe George and Co. can put their money into making the refugees' homelands more hospitable ... whether that be getting rid of murderous dictators, building infrastructure, etc.etc.

 

Edited by eveln
last paragraph of article

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Sometimes your stupidity really knows no bounds....

 

Cheers

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3 hours ago, eveln said:

 .I also reckon she's proven that modern day refugees get it good when one actually goes back to look at what happened to people in actual concentration camps from times past.

 

Yeah. They should be thanking their stars they aren't being starved and gassed and experimented on. Always best to set a low bar to compare your life "goodness" against. 

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1 minute ago, fliptopia said:

 

Yeah. They should be thanking their stars they aren't being starved and gassed and experimented on. Always best to set a low bar to compare your life "goodness" against. 

 

🙂

 

Very useful sarcasm  flip.

 

Cheers

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4 hours ago, eveln said:

Why should refugees get more benefits handed to them  than the poor citizens of what ever country the refugee is trying to get into ?

Good questions.  What is a duty of care and who is eligible for it and where?

 

3 hours ago, eveln said:

Maybe George and Co. can put their money into making the refugees' homelands more hospitable ... whether that be getting rid of murderous dictators, building infrastructure, etc.etc.

There are issues with personal philanthropy superceding state-based welfare systems, especially in the US, but... what should they do that would not normally be called out for foreign interference and/or colonialism?

 

 

And, at what point is it considered worse to call it a concentration camp, than what is happening in those camps, whatever they're called?

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....You seem to be asking a lot of questions of late Nich, care to attempt a few answers ?

 

Cheers

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I do so love hearing that accent advocating for thought before shooting.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Nich... said:

And, at what point is it considered worse to call it a concentration camp, than what is happening in those camps, whatever they're called?

 

Perhaps that clip might help a little with your confusion.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Cybes said:

I do so love hearing that accent advocating for thought before shooting.

[VID]

 

meh, i dont think this guy is helping with alarmist hyperbole tacked onto his closing comments.  suggesting the next step is 'putting them on box cars' or tricking them into taking a shower unfortunately all but erodes the gravity of his previous points.

 

Edited by @~thehung

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