Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Kimmo

Happy Invasion Day

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, chrisg said:

🙂

Top of my head - Unionism and most every state, even non-socialist ones, have them, but if memory serves it began with socialist ideals.

Cheers

 

Nope. Not a socialist idea.

Labour Unions existed as far back in the West as 14th Century Britain.

Edit: Labour has always organised. It doesn't need socialism for that.

Also, FYI....

In all of recorded history of socialist states, there has never been one with a worker's trade union that wasn't stuffed with Party Apparatchiks operating the union for the benefit of the government.

 

Edited by Leonid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

😉

 

A bit of a long bow terming the Guilds as Unions Leo.

In real  terms trade unionism in the U.K. rose to prominence out of the industrial revolution and the consequent factories plus the mines.

The Union movement in turn birthed the English Labor Party so a bit of a chicken and egg situation but I dunno about the Apparatchnik dig, the Union movement tends to be a training ground in politics with many unionists moving into the relevant party.

To be straight I am not and never have been a member of a Union nor ever will be, the Unions pretty much destroyed U.K. manufacturing in my lifetime and did a similar job on much if not all of Australian manufacturing. However it did establish a better deal for workers being taken advantage of by fat-cats.

Fun fact: The U.K movement sort of traces its origin to the Tolpuddle Martyrs, whether or not that is really the fact it is in the lore. I'm distantly related to one of the Martyrs, forget which one, via my maternal grandfather. A bit ironic, the only unionists in my family, a rather large mob, are ones who have married in. My BinL is very active in the S.A. and National education unions.

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not blind to union corruption. 

But I think it's interesting that some folks don't see corruption as the problem, but unions. 

Clearly such people are largely clueless as to how much of what we take for granted as the foundations of a civilised democracy, we owe to unions

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, chrisg said:

😉

 

A bit of a long bow terming the Guilds as Unions Leo.

In real  terms trade unionism in the U.K. rose to prominence out of the industrial revolution and the consequent factories plus the mines.

The Union movement in turn birthed the English Labor Party so a bit of a chicken and egg situation but I dunno about the Apparatchnik dig, the Union movement tends to be a training ground in politics with many unionists moving into the relevant party.

To be straight I am not and never have been a member of a Union nor ever will be, the Unions pretty much destroyed U.K. manufacturing in my lifetime and did a similar job on much if not all of Australian manufacturing. However it did establish a better deal for workers being taken advantage of by fat-cats.

Fun fact: The U.K movement sort of traces its origin to the Tolpuddle Martyrs, whether or not that is really the fact it is in the lore. I'm distantly related to one of the Martyrs, forget which one, via my maternal grandfather. A bit ironic, the only unionists in my family, a rather large mob, are ones who have married in. My BinL is very active in the S.A. and National education unions.

Cheers

You probably didn’t get the gist of what I was alluding to.

In normal non-Socialist countries, trade unions provide political training grounds and form pressure groups and even control political parties that are nominally “worker parties” - ie our Labor Party.

 

In socialist countries workers’ unions are the enemy because its a large group of people with significant clout who might get uppity. So the reverse happens.

In socialist countries, just like every other theocracy such as Iran, Venezuela, North Korea, Palestine, Belarus - the Socialist (or other flavour of fascist) party fires/beheads the union leadership and puts in party elites who then manage the workers.

In essence there is nothing “Union” about unions in socialism. It more resembles a prison camp with the illusion of freedom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Basically, I too hate the argument of “you have to love it to understand” because you don’t need to have cancer to know what cancer is. 

 

The problem with socialism is that the entire construct is a lie. And it’s justified with other lies.

 

Socialist economies are based on a no-incentive model. As such, the only way to increase production is via nationalist “do it for Mother Russia” carrots and “if we don’t produce widget x, America will” stick. There’s also the option to starve people and force them to work for food.

 

Our local rebel claims in one thread or another that people are incentivised by altruism. And that’s true. We get a rush out of it.

 

But in socialism people are fundamentally miserable. Helping others in any sustained positive way is no incentive when your kids have been wearing the same clothes for 10y and the only way you can get a life-saving operation is via cash in an envelope to a doctor who will magically clear his schedule of all the other plebs - or if you’re really lucky and have a good looking wife - you can always give her to the doctor for a night.

 

Unless you’re someone who knows someone high up - in that case doors open for you and the great unwashed are swept away before your regal presence.

 

We are less altruistic when we are miserable and socialism excels in misery. That is it’s defining feature. You trade freedom for economic equality - a fairer part of the whole. But you get neither.

Edited by Leonid
construct construct = construct

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Leonid said:

You probably didn’t get the gist of what I was alluding to.

In normal non-Socialist countries, trade unions provide political training grounds and form pressure groups and even control political parties that are nominally “worker parties” - ie our Labor Party.

In 14th century I thought the Guilds were just another area of Hierarchy. A system sset up and allotted to the shire by the local landowners/rich dudes to inspire skilled workers for the shire ... I thought . That sounds a bit different to what is supposed to happen with unions in a capitalist society ie: us.

Unions came in to stop child labour and dangerous work practices generally.

Anyway, why is it not possible to have a capitalist society where the big Corps and all businesses pay all their taxes in the country they be making their money in ... seems to me if that happened then the desire or need for a socialist system would not be. <<< Seems to me this would work a treat especially as it would also be against the law to over inflate politicians and other public servants wages / fringe benefits too. There'd be money for great public hospitals of all requirements. Public Libraries. Schools, roads, we could have it all !

/backs out real quick

Edited by eveln

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Leonid said:

Socialism is universally the stupidest and most flawed system we've ever developed, with zero redeeming features. It sounds good, which is why rectums keep pushing it - but it has never actually achieved anything worthwhile.

Better than basic feudalism how, for the majority of workers cf serfs?

7 hours ago, Leonid said:

"No True Scotsman" alert.

 

Simple question. Name an element of socialism that originated within and is a central theme of socialism. Any one. And for bonus points, name a state that has implemented it.

No true Leo time: what defining elements of capitalist societies that aren't shitholes originated within capitalism and wasn't inherited by it from other systems?

20 hours ago, Leonid said:

 

 

7 hours ago, Leonid said:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well,

I do actually get where Leo is coming from, this definition of the guilds from Wiki puts it rather well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild

Guilds had a lot to do with protection of knowledge and the passing along of "secrets" to apprentices.

As for political take-overs of unions as he describes, yes, I'm sure it does happen but I do wonder what he has to say about  Lech Wałęsa, and what happened in Poland as the USSR fell apart.

Cheers

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Nich... said:

Better than basic feudalism how, for the majority of workers cf serfs?

As a serf you at least had the chance of a good Lord 🙂

No such hope in socialism.

18 minutes ago, Nich... said:

No true Leo time: what defining elements of capitalist societies that aren't shitholes originated within capitalism and wasn't inherited by it from other systems?

None. Capitalism hasn't claimed to be the inventor of everything great. The defining feature of capitalism is that it's the least worst system we've ever invented - it pulls together a whole bunch of ideas and concepts from earlier systems and evolves others.

Capitalism is the result of trial and error. Or in other words, capitalism is the result of socialism.

10 minutes ago, chrisg said:

As for political take-overs of unions as he describes, yes, I'm sure it does happen but I do wonder what he has to say about  Lech Wałęsa, and what happened in Poland as the USSR fell apart.

Errr.... the guy who collaborated with the Secret Services of the Communist regime and survived as a trade unionist?

I mean... what is there to say? He agreed to be a government agent for communist authoritarians.... do you think that makes him a pro-worker unionist?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

🙂

No, he was indeed a stooge but his minders lost control of  him as his presence on Western media grew. I've not been to Poland in a long time but I did visit before and after the collapse of Communism in the country. He seems to the populace to have been a significant driver in that collapse, whether that is a fact or not.

Cheers

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Leonid said:

"No True Scotsman" alert.

Simple question. Name an element of socialism that originated within and is a central theme of socialism. Any one. And for bonus points, name a state that has implemented it.

*yawn* no Casper, i will not be proving the earth is spherical for you.  and btw, no true astrophysicist thinks the earth is flat. <-- not a fallacy.

something to keep in mind; 'isms' and such are not discretely measurable quantities  — instead, they are clustered combinations of ideas swarming around like groups of cells that occasionally differentiate themselves into various organisms and super-organisms.  they can be vastly different whilst having qualitative features in common by virtue of shared DNA, much like the provisions towards social justice in social democracy and marxism have common ancestory in socialism — despite Marx viciously deriding the roots of modern social democracy in his day as "petty-bourgeois socialism".  <-- not up for debate.

this article is concise enough, but seriously, do some actual reading.

Edited by @~thehung
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, @~thehung said:

*yawn* no Casper, i will not be proving the earth is spherical for you.  and btw, no true astrophysicist thinks the earth is flat. <-- not a fallacy.

something to keep in mind; 'isms' and such are not discretely measurable quantities  — instead, they are clustered combinations of ideas swarming around like groups of cells that occasionally differentiate themselves into various organisms and super-organisms.  they can be vastly different whilst having qualitative features in common by virtue of shared DNA, much like the provisions towards social justice in social democracy and marxism have common ancestory in socialism — despite Marx viciously deriding the roots of modern social democracy in his day as "petty-bourgeois socialism".  <-- not up for debate.

this article is concise enough, but seriously, do some actual reading.

Thanks for playing. FYI, didn’t read your article and won’t.

If you don’t know what you’re talking about, as you don’t, an article confirming your train wreck of a cognitive bias isn’t all that useful to the rest of us. Ask any antivaxxer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, chrisg said:

🙂

No, he was indeed a stooge but his minders lost control of  him as his presence on Western media grew. I've not been to Poland in a long time but I did visit before and after the collapse of Communism in the country. He seems to the populace to have been a significant driver in that collapse, whether that is a fact or not.

Cheers

 

I could talk about Russia for hours... but essentially that’s not surprising.

Communist power waned at the geographic fringes. Except during crackdowns off course when they made up for it in levels of brutality.

When my parents in law are over and they talk to my parents - the same time periods are entirely different for them. My parents were jewish Moscovites. My in-laws were Russian-Orthodox villagers from Kurgan Oblast.

Same country. Two different worlds.

Edited by Leonid
Goddamn autocorrect

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Leonid said:

Thanks for playing. FYI, didn’t read your article and won’t.

If you don’t know what you’re talking about, as you don’t, an article confirming your train wreck of a cognitive bias isn’t all that useful to the rest of us. Ask any antivaxxer.

oops, actually that was the wrong article.  i will edit my post but here it is for you.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrei-markovits/on-socialism-social-democ_b_8399576.html by Andrei S. Markovits, Professor of Political Science, Sociology, and German Studies at the University of Michigan (yes, University of Michigan, also coincidentally a famed hotbed of antivaxxer science LOL)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hah 🙂

Your article’s premise and your statement re the Scandinavians being Social Democracies with grafted socialist principles are... well... so far apart as to be in separate galaxies and realities.

Care to reconsider which one you consider to be true?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep. Society is crap and broken and one we can’t be proud of unless we get the Kimmo vision of utopia.

Off course then, Kimmo won’t be happy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

😉

I doubt you are not aware Leo but "Utopia" does not mean what most people think it does, it actually is Huxley's setting for a dystopia.

A bit ironic given Kimmo's thread on that matter 🙂

Society has always been broken really, the description of the U.S. as an ongoing social experiment can actually be applied to most any evolving society on the planet.

Cheers

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, chrisg said:

actually is Huxley's setting for a dystopia

Huxley did not invent the term.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, chrisg said:

😉

I doubt you are not aware Leo but "Utopia" does not mean what most people think it does, it actually is Huxley's setting for a dystopia.

A bit ironic given Kimmo's thread on that matter 🙂

Society has always been broken really, the description of the U.S. as an ongoing social experiment can actually be applied to most any evolving society on the planet.

Cheers

 

So why make society worse? And more broken?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

🙂

No, aware of that Cybes, goes way back but Huxley's novel brought it into modern use, and misuse. My English teacher was at pains to explain and held a dark suspicion that those bandying it around had not even read the book(s) and were naively misled by the title of the first. "Brave New World" and "Island" were sort of extra credit reading for our "A" and "S" levels in the year I took them. Did not have to read them, just the assigned work, "Middlemarch," Wordsworth, Keats, Yeats, selected Shakespeare, I think we did "Winter's Tale," but background commentary could be added into the exam essays.

It made a difference and kept many of us interested in the subject that tended to bog down in nothing written after about 1850 🙂

Another of the English Lit teachers gave us a copy of Sylvia Plath's "Daddy" which was also a bit of a relief from the assigned shit (not all shit, but Elliot was horrible.)

I blame both off curriculum diversions for introducing me to SF and modern poetry - has cost me a fortune 🙂

I agree Leo, have some ideas on how to reduce the trend before revolt reappears on the streets ?

Could start by denying idiots like Trump, and May, the right to run for election and psychopaths like Putin  🙂

Cheers

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, chrisg said:

"Utopia" does not mean what most people think it does, it actually is Huxley's setting for a dystopia.

saw your response to Cybes, but still dont understand what you are trying to get at

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

🙂

 

I had to remind myself, Thomas More wrote a book with that title in the 16th Century.

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×