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chrisg

Problems with the 737MAX ?

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22 minutes ago, chrisg said:

Actually that was a very late-model 777ER, so maybe we could be a little selective and fly on the older ones  🙂

 

I have no idea how many hours I've flown on the 777, a lot that's for sure.

 

Can't call it my favorite aircraft, not by a long shot, they never really seem to have sorted out the climate control, but I never felt unsafe. I didn't feel as comfortable as I do o the 747, even the older ones, either, but those are getting difficult to find unless you want to fly as cargo  🙂

 

Cheers

 

 

I think there's little oxygen in the cargo area to avoid fires so ... yeah

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🙂

 

Mostly they fly pressurized, there is not much point in sealing off the crew compartment although apparently a couple have been done by just pressurizing the upper deck  - there's big trade these days in cargo that wants to fly under pressure, fresh food being a prime example.

 

I had a crazy job when I was very young one year, flying daffodils from the Channel Islands to Southampton for Mother's Day, in a Dragon Rapide - no pressure there, and not much altitude either but the flowers arrived fresh and the aircraft was... fragrant.  🙂

 

Beats flying horses around, a friend used to do that, gave it up second time one of them went berserk and tried to kick a hole in the aircraft....

 

Cheers

 

 

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Hmm,

 

The link went and did a vanishing act on me but earlier today Boeing were saying it looks like back in the air by October.

 

At the same time the FAA was more cautious, set no timeline and said they were bringing in pilots from across the globe to "fly" the simulator to confirm the MCAS fix has cured the problem.

 

So, definite confirmation MCAS stays, it was debatable for a while, but just logistically I'll be surprised if they can wring it out in the Sim in that time frame.

 

Meanwhile airlines are stating their losses - SouthWest say $175M for second quarter, they are the biggest MAX operator in the US but there are lot more who will be claiming losses.

 

Nonetheless Boeing shares went against the trend and rose on the company news.

 

I really doubt they can satisfy everyone and get in the air again in the next 60 days or so but happy to be proven wrong.

 

Cheers

 

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Yeah,

 

They are pushing the edge again with that one, an extremely large twin.

 

The engine is breaking new ground so reasonable to expect delays, probably even factored in.

 

Cheers

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Hmm,

 

I guess it is the media messing it up, as usual, but a Norwegian 737-800 had to fly a divert today and the media reported it as a 737 -MAX -800.

 

It wasn't, very similar aircraft but not one affected by the ban, does not have the MCAS issue.

 

To return to the 777X, I really think they are asking for trouble in the longer term with that aircraft.

 

Folding wings to fit into existing aircraft bays is just plan Heath Robinson.

 

It will up maintenance, add yet another line to checklists and sooner or later some pilot will forget...

 

A more advanced wing or just admitting that to go really long distances with really bit loads it just makes better sense to have FOUR fuel efficient engines.

 

Boeing seem totally blinkered on ETOPS as the future.

 

Granted Airbus have not exactly set the world on fire with the A-340 or -380 but I'd contend there remains a place for four engine designs that takes the load off pushing engines to higher and higher outputs.

 

Everything is a trade-off, four engines implies more maintenance but we seemed to manage that ok for decades with 747s, VC-10s etc, it might be time for a fresh think.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I had wondered where all the stranded MAX' were, now there is an answer:

 

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/boeing-737-max-scattered-airlines-wait-grounding-end-2019-8?utm_source=quora&utm_medium=referral&r=US&IR=T

 

The sheer cost of this is becoming mind boggling, even when they do return to service it will take months for scheduling to catch up.

 

It had best be a damned good fix is all I can say, any repeat of this and Boeing is toast.

 

Cheers

 

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...And still no firm indication of when the ban will be lifted:

 

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/boeing-737-max-delay-holidays-american-united-flights-cancelled-2019-9-1028494902?utm_source=quora&utm_medium=referral

 

It's becoming very  difficult to feel comfortable about this aircraft when in the course of sorting out the known problem they find ANOTHER one.

 

Cheers

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Not at all Ali.

 

Beginning of the year I sort of shared J's belief - Boeing is too big to fail, now I'm starting to wonder.

 

At the least it may have to be broken up, isolate the military side from the commercial side.

 

Cheers

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Hmm.

 

I guess the spotlight is on Boeing at the moment but the 777X just failed on a static test that sounds horribly similar to the DC-10 of yore.

 

https://nypost.com/2019/09/08/boeing-suspends-test-for-new-777x-aircraft-following-cargo-door-explosion-report/?utm_source=quora&utm_medium=referral

 

I really, really hope they have not put cargo doors on there that latch from the outside rather than the tried and true plug type.

 

If they have the take-over by Douglas would be complete....

 

Cheers

And oh, oh...

 

The rest of the world is not trusting the FAA so much any more - big surprise:

 

https://www.ibtimes.com/easa-says-no-delegation-737-max-approval-faa-showing-distrust-us-regulator-2823029?utm_source=quora&utm_medium=referral

 

Cheers

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On 9/1/2019 at 6:14 PM, chrisg said:

Folding wings to fit into existing aircraft bays is just plain Heath Robinson.

 

huh?

*googles*

okay so he's the UK's Rube Goldberg

 

Heath_Robinson_WWI.png

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🙂

 

Pretty much @TH, I'm not sure which came  first  🙂

 

Cheers

 

 

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Hmm.

 

It is taking on some of the aspects of a witch-hunt - presumably the FAA lifting its game, or being seen to:

 

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/subpoenaed-boeing-documents-fifth-amendment-2019-9?utm_source=quora&utm_medium=referral&r=US&IR=T

 

I don't think it terribly significant that this guy took the fifth, what I do find interesting is that apparently he suggested not including the MCAS in the manual because it was a background system and that he then went on to fly with Southwest, presumably on the MAX.

 

That strongly suggests that there was not even an inkling of the MCAS issue in flight testing and he had no reservations about flying the aircraft.

 

That can be interpreted a couple of ways: Principally that maintenance must have to some degree reared its head - you would expect Boeing maintenance in testing to be of a high order, perhaps not so rigorous far away in Indonesia and Ethiopia.

 

That's no indictment of those countries or their airlines, it's just a reality of in-field use that Boeing did not take into account.

 

A long way of saying when you get back to core the over-sight was in not having an "I-tell-you-two-times"  capability on MCAS.

 

That's  a case of failing to re-invent the wheel. Systems that can even if momentarily, and it is unclear if that is really the case with MCAS,  take over control,  have most always in aviation been at least dual and often triple redundant.

 

Hubris on Boeing's part to say the least.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I've not see any details on it as yet J but that is how it reads from what little information there is.

 

A cargo door "exploded" during a test, apparently at higher pressure differentials than would be seen in the field.

 

Not exactly the point, it goes to the design of the door. If it is built as they pretty much always have been on Boeings pressure just pushes the door in tighter because it is a plug fit. If it latches from the outside, as DC-10 doors do then you need to be very, very careful with the design. It's not obvious at all from the information so far made available which is the case.

 

I tend to agree with the author of that video, it may well be an isolated case, but all eyes re very much on Boeing at present.

 

Cheers

 

 

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It's just Boeing own MD, so the DC-10 and 777x comparisons jump out automatically. I think MD ruined Boeing.

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*Sigh*

 

I have to admit I am starting to wonder.

 

McDonnell were always a great company, but it did begin to flounder when Jimmy retired so a  merger with Douglas made some sense. Especially as Douglas were in a cash crisis at the time and whilst McDonnell was riding high then it was always highly dependent upon military contracts.

 

Anecdotally it was McDonnell people who sorted out the Douglas side of the business but also anecdotally it was Douglas engineers who initially messed up the DC-10. It did become a good aircraft in the end, and sold well but it had a lot of early bad press and horrible accidents to live down.

 

Douglas has long been more a sales oriented rather than engineering driven company. They profited so hugely on the DC-3 that in a way they could afford to be but in a string of aircraft following the -3 on'y the -8 and -9 really made much money. Even then if you are honest the -8 was a failure against the 707. The -9 was different, it filled a niche in the market very well, but Boeing probably erred somewhat in keeping it going as the 717.

 

I really do hope the ethos that drove Long Beach has not followed along to Seattle and Chicago.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

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Hmm,

 

On the military side they've done very well, there have been issues with civilian aircraft for sure.

 

Not just the DC-10 either, the super stretched DC-8s had a few issues, one literally fell in half, more or less, on the runway at JFK,

 

That said apart from the debacle of the cargo door which was truly tragic and killed over 260 people out side Paris, most of the -10s issues were more human error.

 

The aircraft that literally had an engine fall off it and crashed on take-off at Chicago was some idiots replacing an engine using a fork-lift for example.

 

I think I mentioned I have only ever once flown on a -10, it was a great flight on a very comfortable aircraft.

 

But I would imagine some very serious questions are being asked in Chicago as this drags on and on.

 

The way it is looking there are going to be some serious delays over Christmas some places, several airlines where expects MAX' in their fleets well before then.

 

Cheers

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Well,

 

At a guess this will mean no Max in the air in Europe before Christmas let alone the possibility that EASA decides it wants triplicated MCAS sensors before it approves the type:

 

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/europe-737-max-test-flights-faa-split-2019-9?utm_source=quora&utm_medium=referral&r=US&IR=T

 

It just keeps looking worse for Boeing.

 

Cheers

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27 minutes ago, chrisg said:

Well,

 

At a guess this will mean no Max in the air in Europe before Christmas let alone the possibility that EASA decides it wants triplicated MCAS sensors before it approves the type:

 

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/europe-737-max-test-flights-faa-split-2019-9?utm_source=quora&utm_medium=referral&r=US&IR=T

 

It just keeps looking worse for Boeing.

 

Cheers

 

Something Boeing should have done in first place but ... it's too late now

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Yeah.

 

It really is somewhat of a shame though - for years the FAA has been the Gold Standard, if they approve something it has to be ok.

 

Now Boeing is basically dragging their good name down with it.

 

Partly the FAA's fault also of course, they should have remained impartial but, and it is a big but, modern aircraft are so complex now that the only way really to have impartial oversight is throughout the entire build process. Very simply the FAA has nowhere near enough funding to undertake that degree of engagement.

 

Perhaps in the future they are going to have to and the funding will have to be sourced from the manufacturers in part. Which of course then implies future compromises.

 

Cheers

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Hmm,

 

I might be having to correct myself, seems Boeing are gearing up on the assumption of being back in the air with the Max for Christmas:

 

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/biz/archives/2019/09/15/2003722290/1

 

That is not a logjam I'd want to be sorting out but buried in that article there is a mention of putting 1,500 engineers onto the task of building a new "small jet."

 

That's both encouraging and an admission that the MAX is the last 737, which is way, way past time.

 

However also there is some mention of the potential for over-supply which would not be exactly encouraging if you are bringing a new jet to market.

 

Boeing I believe is in for a decade or more of trauma the way these things play out, particularly how long it takes to bring a completely new design to market.

 

Meanwhile Airbus can stay nimble with their much newer -300x design but also start thinking about what is next.

 

Endless war it seems.

 

Cheers

 

 

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Well Boeing better get 777x and 787 working or else it's coffin time in the commercial sector for them.

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