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NZT48

Government exists to protect liberty, not to provide services or redistribute wealth.

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12 hours ago, NZT48 said:

If you want to help the poor then support free market capitalism and give them money and encourage others to do the same.

 

Capitalism does fuck-all to help poor. It increases poverty. This is a fact I posted some evidence to support: R>G. Your insistence otherwise, based on nothing more than dogma, doesn't count for shit. 

 

Furthermore, a society reliant on charity is a stain on human dignity. 

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14 hours ago, eveln said:

@Kimmo ... is there more than one " Kimmo " ?

 

Yep, there's the one who hasn't decided yet that discussion with someone is futile, and the one who has. Guess which one is in store for NZT48.

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1 hour ago, Kimmo said:

 

Yep, there's the one who hasn't decided yet that discussion with someone is futile, and the one who has. Guess which one is in store for NZT48.

Ahhh, see your use of " we" to start a post consisting of your own views, I did wonder whether you were feeling : a) schizophrenic , b) Royal, or c) royally schizophrenic ... cos surely you were not assuming everyone else had exactly your views on the topic 🙂

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2 hours ago, eveln said:

cos surely you were not assuming everyone else had exactly your views on the topic

 

Ah, you read my post carefully for once.

20 hours ago, NZT48 said:

I draw the line between what is necessary for the protection of liberty and what isn't.

 

I said 'we got that' - it's kinda implied in the title, innit? Do you wish to exclude yourself from my only use of 'we', there?

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1 hour ago, Kimmo said:

 

Ah, you read my post carefully for once.

 

I said 'we got that' - it's kinda implied in the title, innit? Do you wish to exclude yourself from my only use of 'we', there?

Usually do read your posts ... Nothing to get a big head over, if I read a thread, then that's what I do.

Yep.

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Do you have any actual views on the matter at hand, or are these snitty digressions really where it's at for you?

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33 minutes ago, Kimmo said:

Do you have any actual views on the matter at hand, or are these snitty digressions really where it's at for you?

Hah! see now if you had read the thread you would see that I expressed my view already.

If you didn't frame a personal opinion using the plural "We ", I would not have uttered a word 🙂

 

 

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4 hours ago, eveln said:

If you didn't frame a personal opinion using the plural "We ", I would not have uttered a word

 

But that didn't happen, did it. You're just gaslighting in order to try to score boring little points. Tedious AF. 

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19 hours ago, SacrificialNewt said:

What about people who abuse others, particularly children? Who will protect the children? 

The law and the police hopefully.

22 hours ago, SacrificialNewt said:

We also know that the poor slide further into poverty. Some 'Christian' charities might feed of clothe them, but that's where it ends. The recipients are doomed to a life of begging.

How do you know that?

22 hours ago, SacrificialNewt said:

I've noted that people who believe in a laissez-faire economy really don't see the humanitarian issues with it.

What "humanitarian issues"?

19 hours ago, Nich... said:

So your religious liberty is not impinged if Australians decide to not employ people of minor sects spouting radicalism?

Yes.

17 hours ago, Nich... said:

And you're ok with not spending your tax dollars on making sure someone else's kids are well educated workers and customers, but you're ok with making me pay for the roads you use and I don't?

I think roads should be funded by a tax on fuel at the state/territory level.

20 hours ago, Nich... said:

Govt funded roads aren't essential to liberty.  Change my mind.

How do you think roads should be done? I don't like toll roads because I am paranoid about being tracked and using the automatic payment system and it seems to me they are only possibly practical on major long stretches of roads.

20 hours ago, Nich... said:

Have you ever visited Hong Kong?

No.

8 hours ago, Kimmo said:

Capitalism does fuck-all to help poor. It increases poverty. This is a fact I posted some evidence to support: R>G. Your insistence otherwise, based on nothing more than dogma, doesn't count for shit. 

 

Furthermore, a society reliant on charity is a stain on human dignity. 

Why do you say capitalism increases poverty?

 

More wealth is generated in freer societies. More wealth is always good. 

 

Why do you think government welfare is superior to charity? I think individuals should be more free to do what they want with their money.

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Furthermore, it's interesting how many supposedly freedom-loving rugged individualists are somehow also bootlicking authoritarians

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Capitalism is the worst economic system... except for all the other ones.

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1 hour ago, Kimmo said:

 

But that didn't happen, did it. You're just gaslighting in order to try to score boring little points. Tedious AF. 

Oh please

Your third post in this thread began with "we". It's a power play, pure and simple. And you know it.
Surely your voice alone is strong enough ...

 

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Posted (edited)

I think toll roads are evil. The way they currently run has everything to do with a money grab and little to sweet fuck all to do with maintenance or new roads.

Edited by eveln
" maintainance "
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Yes and no.  It's user pays which for a premium quality road is fair enough.   Not exactly fair expecting people who don't live there to pay for roads they never use.

 

But on the other hand, the funding arrangement is usually part government and part private with a good whack of the money coming from Super funds.

So in essense it's a triple-dip where you're paying for the road via taxes, funding it via superannuation then paying to use something you sort of own already.

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On 4/25/2019 at 9:24 PM, Nich... said:

So your paranoia trumps my liberty?

Sorry; I didn't reply well. I think freedom to travel is very important and roads assist with this greatly so I consider it essential for liberty. I also don''t like toll roads for the reasons eveln and Rybags mentioned and because of the potential privacy/tracking issues and they are not practical with most roads. I put it to you that toll roads are a threat to our liberty. I also think funding roads with a tax on fuel is pretty fair.

On 4/25/2019 at 9:51 PM, Kimmo said:

What nonsense. Capitalism is not the problem. The fact that humanity does not care for the environment enough means that we should care for the environment more, not ditch private property and the free market (not that our market is truly free but that's another matter.

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On 4/25/2019 at 9:22 PM, NZT48 said:

The law and the police hopefully.

 

You just said parents should not be told how to parent.

 

On 4/25/2019 at 9:22 PM, NZT48 said:

How do you know that?

 

History

 

On 4/25/2019 at 9:22 PM, NZT48 said:

What "humanitarian issues"?

 

 

...and so proves my point.

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11 hours ago, NZT48 said:

Capitalism is not the problem. The fact that humanity does not care for the environment enough means that we should care for the environment more, not ditch private property and the free market (not that our market is truly free but that's another matter.

 

Capitalists don't want free markets; that's just propaganda. Look at all the regulation necessary to keep would-be monopolists in check, and all the regulations they lobby for in order to consolidate their position and lock out competitors. 

 

And probably the biggest reason people don't care about the environment is that they're constantly indoctrinated by capitalists not to give a shit, and to consider those who do to be extremists. 

 

If you only try to maximize a simple definition of freedom, with no regard for justice, collective responsibility goes out the window. To the antisocial psychopaths bent on having us all live to serve the 'free' market, collectivism is verboten. They do everything possible to destroy every last vestige of it, because capitalists are opposed to our collective interests. 

 

R>G, and don't bother to reply to me until you've educated yourself about what that means. 

 

Serving capitalists is a fucking death cult. 

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On 25/04/2019 at 10:58 PM, Rybags said:

Yes and no.  It's user pays which for a premium quality road is fair enough.   Not exactly fair expecting people who don't live there to pay for roads they never use.

In which case why isn't the road outside of your house - and my house - a toll road?

 

21 hours ago, NZT48 said:

Sorry; I didn't reply well. I think freedom to travel is very important and roads assist with this greatly so I consider it essential for liberty. I also don''t like toll roads for the reasons eveln and Rybags mentioned and because of the potential privacy/tracking issues and they are not practical with most roads. I put it to you that toll roads are a threat to our liberty. I also think funding roads with a tax on fuel is pretty fair.

I put it to you that you're making up excuses when it suits your laziness.  What happened to liberty or death?  I put it to you that I consider a well grounded education to be essential for liberty, for without being taught how to critically analyse and engage, how can you be a real citizen and not just a slave?  Therefore public education for all!  Also I'm too lazy to go and make it happen in a private system, and pretty much all and every private system now involves a whole heap of data collection and that's not just kosher, jim.  Therefore I put it to you that public education trumps your paranoia.

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18 minutes ago, Nich... said:
On 25/04/2019 at 10:58 PM, Rybags said:

Yes and no.  It's user pays which for a premium quality road is fair enough.   Not exactly fair expecting people who don't live there to pay for roads they never use.

In which case why isn't the road outside of your house - and my house - a toll road?

Wash your mouth out !

No need to be giving councils another idea for rate increases  !! 

 

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15 hours ago, SacrificialNewt said:

You just said parents should not be told how to parent.

The context is education.

15 hours ago, SacrificialNewt said:

History

What history?

15 hours ago, SacrificialNewt said:

...and so proves my point.

...and so doesn't answer my question.

 

5 hours ago, Kimmo said:

Capitalists don't want free markets; that's just propaganda.

Some do and some don't. I do.

9 hours ago, Kimmo said:

Look at all the regulation necessary to keep would-be monopolists in check

Why is it necessary?

9 hours ago, Kimmo said:

and all the regulations they lobby for in order to consolidate their position and lock out competitors. 

That is crony capitalism which I have a problem with.

9 hours ago, Kimmo said:

And probably the biggest reason people don't care about the environment is that they're constantly indoctrinated by capitalists not to give a shit, and to consider those who do to be extremists.

Which capitalists? Not all of them. Can you provide examples?

10 hours ago, Kimmo said:

R>G

Have you read criticism of "R>G"? If you haven't then I suggest you do. I also suggest you tell me why you think it is fair to oppose all capitalism instead of just crony capitalism.

 

1 hour ago, Nich... said:

I put it to you that you're making up excuses when it suits your laziness.  What happened to liberty or death?

What are you talking about?

1 hour ago, Nich... said:

I put it to you that I consider a well grounded education to be essential for liberty, for without being taught how to critically analyse and engage, how can you be a real citizen and not just a slave?  Therefore public education for all!  Also I'm too lazy to go and make it happen in a private system, and pretty much all and every private system now involves a whole heap of data collection and that's not just kosher, jim.  Therefore I put it to you that public education trumps your paranoia.

Education should be done privately. What is this data collection you speak of and why can't it be done privately?

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While you're getting rid of cronyism in capitalism why don't you also get a working version of communism going where everyone puts in a equal share, takes out an equal share and is happy with just that? Maybe you could run the 2 systems concurrently? 

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, NZT48 said:

 

On 4/30/2019 at 9:46 AM, Kimmo said:

And probably the biggest reason people don't care about the environment is that they're constantly indoctrinated by capitalists not to give a shit, and to consider those who do to be extremists.

Which capitalists? Not all of them. Can you provide examples?

 

Ye gods. By which, I mean fucking Murdoch, those scumbag Koch brothers, that rancid fuckstain Trump, and on and on and on, all the way down to your Rhineharts and your Palmers.

 

When you have an insane multiple of the most money anyone should have, it's a tall order not to go at least a bit insane; it takes some pretty extreme contortions if you wanna kid yourself you deserve it. And then you have to make others believe you deserve it... whole lotta job creation there.

 

15 hours ago, NZT48 said:

 

On 4/30/2019 at 9:46 AM, Kimmo said:

R>G

Have you read criticism of "R>G"? If you haven't then I suggest you do. I also suggest you tell me why you think it is fair to oppose all capitalism instead of just crony capitalism. 

 

I'm not interested in the ethically and intellectually bankrupt ravings of bootlicking pretend economists and their slimy rent-a-verdicts about ridiculous self-serving models in the face of a stone cold fact supported by mountains of data compiled by an actual economist, of high reknown and great import.

 

All capitalism IS crony capitalism - it's built in, by its inherent opposition to the egalitarianism of collectivism. It's neo-feudal. Money is power, and people want it. And they're not necessarily polite about getting it...

 

The way you nip that shit in the bud, is you start saying not every fucking thing under the sun is for sale. We need an impenetrable bedrock foundation of collectivism, or the fucking scum will unravel whatever we've put together over the space of many generations, in just one or two. Every time.

 

The income of the very wealthy grows faster than everyone else's; it's a historical fact. So it takes active downwards wealth redistribution just to maintain the status quo of wealth inequality. Actually reducing it would require beating the rich into submission; they cry bloody murder and class war at any measure to even slow down the rate everyone but the rich gets poorer.

 

This is what class war really looks like:

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Screen%20Shot%202013-03-04%20at%2012.35.

 

120910110833-chart-average-wealth-tablet

 

The smoking gun:

Gilens1.png

It doesn't matter a damn how many people want something done, if none of them are obscenely rich.

 

Gilens2.png

Oh hello, if you're in the top ten percent, the government is about 60% responsive all of a sudden. Make that the top 1%, and that degree of responsiveness starts to look like puppet strings.

 

Murdoch is right up Shorten, and come his turn, Morrison is caressing Rupe's balls while he gags on it. It's a fucking obscene travesty, right out there in front of everyone.

 

And the reason I know it's getting worse, without even having to reference the mountains of empirical fact supporting my case, is that it's getting more and more brazen. Once, modesty demanded a fig leaf over the sordid corruption; we used to see a token head roll now and then. But now we just get the finger.

 

 

Edited by Kimmo
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As I suspected.  Lazy when it suits you, and not just when it comes to dodging questions.

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