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Wasting water with environmental flows

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One of three short videos that are worth a look

 

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Hmm,

 

Would have to look deeper but it is demonstrable that the Murray often silts up at the mouth, suggesting water has been robbed big time during its passage.

 

It's beyond odd really, I've water-ski-ed on it not more than 100kms from the mouth, on a broad river - suddenly it loses all momentum and vanishes.

 

No idea atm.

 

Cheers

 

 

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farming is passée . Cattle fart too much . It's all about mining now. 😕

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Drove through Hilston in NSW in summer passing 50 acre rice crops sitting in 4 foot of water on a 35C day. Dont have to be Einstein to figure out thats just stupid

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Much the same with cotton.

 

The Darling river has sufficient agricultural use that it varies between dry and barely flowing.  I crossed over it 24 years ago and wasn't much impressed.

The Murrumbidgee is a shadow of what it was, plenty of dams on it and it's sources but at least there's reasonable flow much of the time.

Murray has some dams and weirs but as the ultimate outflow of most of SE Australia's water inland of the Great Dividing Range it's obviously going to suffer if it's main sources also do.

 

With the Darling at least it seems to be a few upstream taking a lot of water for personal benefit to themselves and not many others.  And it's not something new, been going on for decades.

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Interesting. I was under the impression that the MD was dry in some parts.  I believe some farms (such as Cubbie Station) are entitled to far too many litres of water and are stockpiling in their dams. 

 

How about we get prisoners to dig a trench from the Pacific to the Indian and change the entire system.

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I don't know if it's better mapping or <whatever> but when I was a kid the Darling was supposed to be our longest river.

Now it's #3 behind even the Murrumbidgee.

Possibly the Darling's source has been redefined, maybe to the point of being a totally different tributary?

It's not all that long ago that a "proper" source of the Murray was defined.

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2 hours ago, SacrificialNewt said:

How about we get prisoners to dig a trench from the Pacific to the Indian and change the entire system.

What'll that achieve?

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🙂

 

Not quite sure how SN.

 

Every few years someone does come up with the very sensible idea of bringing water which is in over abundance from the tropical north of in particular Western Australia and usually via canals route it to the south.

 

it's an idea that is full of promise but the cost always leaves it on the drawing board.

 

Cheers

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There's a lot of mines on farming land now so how much water do they take from the aquifers and river?

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1 hour ago, chrisg said:

from the tropical north of in particular Western Australia and usually via canals route it to the south.

Evaporation and soakage would be too big an issue IMO, would really need to be done with pipes which of course would be way to expensive.

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There's a dual argument in that regard Ali, that being that evaporation and soakage are regardless putting water where you want it, being into the soil or into the atmosphere to return as rain.

 

That begs the question of course of just how much would be left at the intended destinations 🙂

 

Pipes don't really thrill me very much after once living in Port Augusta which gets its water, complete with wrigglers and enough bleach to make you choke some days, from the Murray pipeline.

 

Perhaps more pragmatically I do wonder just how much moving water south would affect the north. It's a bit simplistic to think of it as "going to waste."

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, SacrificialNewt said:

 

Rainfall in the centre of Australia

Won't that effect the IOD-El Ninx system that feeds water to the SE of Australia?
But also, significant enough rainfall to make up for cutting the murray darling system in half?

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3 hours ago, Nich... said:

Won't that effect the IOD-El Ninx system that feeds water to the SE of Australia?
But also, significant enough rainfall to make up for cutting the murray darling system in half?

 

Well if you allow for the rainfall to flow from the banks into the river, if you have blockages like dams trapping the water it never gets there.

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Hmm.

 

Pretty amazing already how much goes into the atmosphere every day though.

 

I forget the exact figures but in summer an estimate from Alice Springs was on the order of 100s of thousands of gallons a day from open water storage.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, chrisg said:

I forget the exact figures but in summer an estimate from Alice Springs was on the order of 100s of thousands of gallons a day from open water storage.

looking at the BOM Evaporation rates you are looking at about 2400 to 2800mm per annum.

http://www.bom.gov.au/watl/evaporation/

One millimetre of rainfall is the equivalent of one litre of water per square meter.

 

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🙂

 

Yeah, that's a lot of water going up into the air.

 

Of course via simple geothermal affects or if you want to get fancy Coriolis none of it ever seems to fallback on the Alice..

 

I was, many years ago, supposed to run a pastoral office there, ended up in Darwin instead, just in time for cyclone Tracey. Been back there a number of times over the years, not once has it rained  🙂

 

Cheers

 

 

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On 7/5/2019 at 11:25 AM, Nich... said:

Won't that effect the IOD-El Ninx system that feeds water to the SE of Australia?
But also, significant enough rainfall to make up for cutting the murray darling system in half?

 

I expect it would affect most systems.  It would effectively be like cutting the country into two halves. People here have mentioned pipelines, but what I mean is to cut an entire, wide river between east and west, effectively with extremely cheap prisoner labour. I'm sure it would take decades. I don't actually see it happening though.

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Decades?

 

More like centuries SN and we don't do chain gangs any more so it would be a commercial enterprise that would really struggle to ever see a benefit.

 

I also wonder what unintended environmental outcomes might occur, essentially you would be joining two ecosystems that whilst they do have very indirect interconnections are actually very different.

 

It's also not a river, its salt water that would have to make its mind up which way it wanted to flow - memory says there is a height difference between the two oceans but regardless over time you'd have some interesting salination issues to contend with as well.

 

No, I can't see it ever happening, probably just as well.

 

Cheers

 

 

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One engineering project I heard about which was truly just theoretical was to build a mountain range through the middle of Australia to create another watershed.

But even if it could happen I reckon it'd just reduce rainfall to the east of it.

 

Canberra is supposedly in a "rain shadow" - the mountain ranges to the west are somewhat higher than the surrounding terrain - like 4 to 6,500 feet peaks vs 1600-2100 in the low areas, so it's somewhat more complicated.

But then compare a place on the coast of similar latitude like Ulladulla the rainfall there is 2/3rds more.

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🙂

 

Every time bar one that I've been to Canberra it has been raining, I often think that it was a bizarre joke by someone unknown to put the capital in such a place.

 

Then again I think the same of Washington, there really is some cosmic joker at work, try Moscow  🙂

 

In defense thereof London, Paris and Tokyo are very habitable cities, but i do digress   🙂

 

i do doubt that there is any aboriginal blood in me although given my tumbling genes anything is possible but regardless the aboriginal spirit in me says we do not have the right to so radically alter the landscape, we do not fully understand the consequences and it is far better to live with the land and accept it as it is.

 

We already fuck it up enough just by existing but we do, sometimes, seem to be getting better at that.

 

I do accept though that I was utterly horrified by the recent Ballard pics of plastic bags and candy wrappers at the bottom of the Marianas trench.

 

I stopped using shopping bags at all a long, long time ago, I already had an accumulation of them that I repurposed for a long time but they did eventually run out-maybe not, I think I used some to store my stuff in W.A.

 

It actually pleased me today to find that Reject Shop is greening its bags - not quite sure how yet but from free bags there was an option of 10 cents to buy one.

 

I didn't need one I keep endlessly recyclable bags in my car, always forget to take them with me but does it matter if I fill the bags at the boot ?

 

That's a long ramble, I'm in a ramble mood, two more of my friends died in the last 24 hours, I'm somewhat funeraled out.

 

I'm not sure Ry, not been there for a while, if Canberra qualifies for temperature inversion or if the mountains are far enough away for it not to matter ?

 

I was bloody horrified to see the smog over Adelaide two days ago when my sister and I came back from a pleasant trip down south.

 

Thirty odd years of supposed efforts to clean it up and it is worse than ever it seems.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Adelaide has even less rainfall but the 2 times I was there for just under a week each it was almost constant drizzle for almost the entire time.

 

The Brindabellas are close, maybe too close, but the climate either side of them is fairly similar.

The difference with the main part of the Great Dividing Range, which if you get anal actually includes Brindabellas and a whole lot more, in the south of NSW before you get to the Snowies, is for the most part between 15-50 km off the actual coast with the altitude difference being sea level up to about 1500-2200 feet (the actual mountain peaks being closer to 2200-2800), and the general climate being very different during a lot of the year.

 

But that applies for much of the east coast - the coast will be 10 degrees cooler on summer days and nearly 10 warmer in the winter.  A big key in rain, storms etc is that change in conditions which will usually trigger the rain to fall on the coastal side.

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🙂

 

Adelaide can get drizzly, after 25 years away I had forgotten that, Perth it simply comes in off the ocean and pours.

 

Regardless, never bothered to own a raincoat in Oz, as Einstein once said when  asked why he took his hat off and put it under his coat in a shower, "my hair will dry, my hat would be ruined."

 

Does beg the question of why he bothered with a hat of course   🙂

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, chrisg said:

Decades?

 

More like centuries SN and we don't do chain gangs any more so it would be a commercial enterprise that would really struggle to ever see a benefit.

 

I also wonder what unintended environmental outcomes might occur, essentially you would be joining two ecosystems that whilst they do have very indirect interconnections are actually very different.

 

It's also not a river, its salt water that would have to make its mind up which way it wanted to flow - memory says there is a height difference between the two oceans but regardless over time you'd have some interesting salination issues to contend with as well.

 

No, I can't see it ever happening, probably just as well.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

Yes, it would be ocean water, but it would still bring rain. Salination issues occur only around the vicinity of the shores. However, the desert would surely shrink over time. I know we don't do chain gangs anymore, but I'm not exactly opposed to it.  I think it would be an interesting conquest, but I'm sure it won't happen. 

 

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