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@~thehung

Vowel deeds are afoot in modern Strayan

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I will elaborate on what this is about later.

 

For now, please listen and vote on which pronunciation of the two words below sounds most correct to you. 

 

Can you easily hear the differences? Would you say the pronunciations are interchangeable in one or both cases? 

 

 

(Can't embed, unfortunately.  So the 4 pics below are links)

 

 

Z8c51t4.jpgqH3v5Ck.jpg

 

...

 

g9NKp5h.jpg7WPaOIY.jpg

...

..

.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

So...

 

I first became aware of the so called "Salary–celery merger" four years ago after reading this article:

"Are Melburnians mangling the language?"(*cough*...yes) link

     Dr Loake has been looking at the mechanisms of sound change

     and said there is a specific sound change evident in Melbourne

     and Southern Victoria, where ‘el’ sounds are becoming confused

    with ‘al’ sounds.

 

Since then, I've been noticing it more and more — to the point that I've become ...juuuuust a little bit fixated on it 🙂

 

...its one of those things, like when someone draws your attention to the ticking of a clock you had been successfully ignoring, after which point you cant unnotice it. 

 

One of the starkest examples I've ever heard was a string of sentences during the first couple of minutes of ABC TV's Gruen recently (20 Nov).  ergo, this thread.

 

 

Explanation of the samples above:-

 

the B versions are both unedited samples of Wil Anderson.


Sally B = SELLY
help B  = HALP

 

the A versions are edits to swap Wil's vowels around.


Sally A = SALLY
help A  = HELP

 


my take:

 

Sally B is blatantly "Selly".  There is zero room for ambiguity.  It's an 'el' sound, pure and simple.  I don't understand how it's possible for a native speaker to aim for one vowel and blurt out another.  C'mon ppl, we're not Kiwis.

 

Help B is definitely more subtle.  It's not quite "halp".  More like HÆLP.  It's a mix of 'el' and 'al', but skewed heavily towards 'al'.  I probably hear it a lot without registering it — or at least used to in the blissful days of yore.  However, most people who haven't been drinking whatever is in the water down in Victoria will register a stark contrast to "help" said proper like.  btw, Peter Helliar pronounces his surname with a very strong 'al'. 

 

Sally A is a bit screwy.  As above, the replacement vowel isnt quite a pure 'a'. Plus, what may confuse some ears, is it's a little off because I couldn't get a clean edit.  It's almost "Sully" to my ears.  But even then, still closer to a woman's name than a brand of glue.

 

Help A, whilst constructed, sounds exactly like "help", coz that's how to english.  

 

 

I don't get it.  How does this even come about?  Consistent tonal shifts in vowels I can understand.  Like people saying 'noice' instead of 'nice'.  But random interchangeability, between two very different vowels, pronounced conventionally for the most part....W.T.F.

 


Quotes from celery vs salary reddit thread: are_salary_and_celery_pronounced_the_sam

 

"I'm from New Zealand and it's the first I've heard that they could be pronounced differently from each other. I pronounce them exactly the same."

 

"I'm a Melbournian and for me they're identical."

 

smh.  Is ^this what you want for yourselves — for our countrySort your shit out Melbourne!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by @~thehung

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I voted A in both cases . And yes I can hear the difference.

 

Edited by eveln
the variations would be due to locale, perhaps ?
  • Like 1

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1 = A.  2 = No difference.

 

It should be noted that I have significant hearing loss, and tinnitus just to futz up what I can hear.

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9 hours ago, Jeruselem said:

B and B, A sounds like Sully and Halp!

B and A here. I thought B sounded like halp actually. 

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5 hours ago, fliptopia said:

B and A here. I thought B sounded like halp actually. 

 

That would be the Malbourne  accent.

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B & A in that order

 

they sound quite different to me

 

i am somewhat weird in that my pre-adolescent exposure to accent (and it is a somewhat contagious thing) was first melbourne, then darwin, then adelaide - so i ended up with mostly the plummy s.a. lilt, but am still quite prepared to hear people say casstle rather than carstle when they pronounce castle

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Depending on my mood I'll swing from carstle to casstle in my speech. But Sally is always Sally, not Selly or Sarlly, and definitely not Sully,  for me

I heard the "B"s as saying Selly and Herlp

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Vowel shifting occurs all over the place, and our variants of it are much more subtle than most.

 

Most prominent are probably Nuww Zellund and Canada.  Certain parts of the US also.

 

But yeah, Victorians probably do it most noticably here.  South Australians usually have a lisp, and Queenslanders populate every sentence with "aye".  And unskilled industrial workers start every second sentence with "Yeah, Nah!"

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1 hour ago, Rybags said:

Vowel shifting occurs all over the place, and our variants of it are much more subtle than most.

 

Most prominent are probably Nuww Zellund and Canada.  Certain parts of the US also.

 

But yeah, Victorians probably do it most noticably here.  South Australians usually have a lisp, and Queenslanders populate every sentence with "aye".  And unskilled industrial workers start every second sentence with "Yeah, Nah!"

Oi !! ... Yeah Naaahhhhhhhhhh

^^ coming to you from an ex-Vic that has lived in Farrrrrrr nth Qld for longtimenow 😛

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nz, eh !

 

i remember in aukland being told by someone that they were "suck of sutting in a cheer and were off to baird"

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Ha, I listen to 2 podcasts that Wil Anderson does so maybe he has broken my ears so I think Selly sounds right. 

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I live in the NT but have lived the Queensland for 3 years and visit Melbourne. Maybe that's kinda affected my sound hearing.

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On 11/30/2019 at 7:26 PM, Cybes said:

1 = A.  2 = No difference.

 

It should be noted that I have significant hearing loss, and tinnitus just to futz up what I can hear.

 

curious to know if you pronounce celery/salary the same?

 

1 hour ago, Kimmo said:

Mah

 

is that you attempting "meh" ?  😁

 

for anyone who does pronounce celery and salary the same way, i'm interested to know if you can hear the difference AT ALL when someone outside your sphere pronounces them differently?  like, maybe you can, but the difference seems too subtle to bother with.  according to the linguist in the article i linked to, the confusion begins with hearing. but would it depend on accent at all?  would you be more or less likely to notice the difference from an english or american person?

 

i've noticed i can hear vowels differently depending on which accent i am listening for.  i used to have a ridiculous ongoing argument with a friend about the SEGA Megadrive start up sound.  she was convinced the voices were saying "Say-gah".  i thought it was "See-gah".  now though, if i listen with my american ears on, i hear Say-gah.

 

 

 

Edited by @~thehung

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44 minutes ago, @~thehung said:

  i used to have a ridiculous ongoing argument with a friend about the SEGA Megadrive start up sound.  she was convinced the voices were saying "Say-gah".  i thought it was "See-gah".  now though, if i listen with my american ears on, i hear Say-gah.

 

Interesting. We always said "see-gah" and were surprised when our console said "say-gah" 

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Sega is said like beg-a surely?

It's not spelt with a double "e"

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1 hour ago, eveln said:

Sega is said like beg-a surely?

It's not spelt with a double "e"

 

you mean beg-a like "begger" right? 

in australia, its like Bega (cheese), ie. Seger (Bob)

 

the correct latin american pronunciation of the surname Vega (eg. Suzanne Vega) is closest to "bair-gah", which americans process as "vay-gah". in silicon valley especially, they were always destined to do the same with SEGA.

 

americans do some weird shit.  they dont really have the short 'o' in Carlos like we do.  their 'loss' is a hybrid of 'loss'/'lahss'.  so their only other option to make Carlos with familiar sounds is use their long 'o' and make a meal of the last syllable - carl-OSE

 

 

Edited by @~thehung

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1 hour ago, @~thehung said:

 

you mean beg-a like "begger" right? 

in australia, its like Bega (cheese), ie. Seger (Bob)

 

 

yep that's what I meant. Hadn't thought of Bega cheese ( and yet we buy it )  ... in my mind I read the label as Beg-a not Beega , and yet I say Beega. stupid shit !! 

Edited by eveln

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But there is the single g there so I'd go ee rather than eh that I would do if it were segga. 

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may I present you with ...beg ... leg ...peg

Edited by eveln

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8 hours ago, @~thehung said:

curious to know if you pronounce celery/salary the same?

 

Um, how would I judge that? To my ear, not even close, but obviously I can't speak for others. Especially not those from states other than my own.

 

If it helps, Adelaide peeps are often mistaken for Londoners by people not from London - but not by them nor us. It's happened to me a couple of times at big hotels in Sydney and Melbourne.

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56 minutes ago, Cybes said:

 

Um, how would I judge that? To my ear, not even close, but obviously I can't speak for others. Especially not those from states other than my own.

 

If it helps, Adelaide peeps are often mistaken for Londoners by people not from London - but not by them nor us. It's happened to me a couple of times at big hotels in Sydney and Melbourne.

 

potentially, you could speak the words to somebody who holds them to be distinct and ask?  but hold on, i should have established more explicitly if you heard them the same — which was not strongly suggested by your responses.  chances are, if you feel like you say them differently, you probably do, because you hear the differences.

 

i know someone who mispronounces certain words in her native language because she makes an 'ng' at the end of some that should finish with an 'n' sound.  with a lot of concentration and effort, she can physically produce the correct sound, but never cultivated it.  because, fascinatingly, although she has normal hearing in all other respects, if you say the english words "win" and "wing" to her, she cannot tell the difference. 

Edited by @~thehung

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